Limit banlist discussion. I'm not interested in having a debate on that topic here, although it would be kind of refreshing in a way to have that discussion out from the main thread, as congested as it is with ... "opinions." Terminus is probably the real issue due to the pressure it exerts on creature decks, which then can't apply any of their own pressure to the format (there are more creatures in vintage than there are in legacy right now). We've all seen WotC's banning process, though, and I would presume they'll ban Top before Terminus, along the same lines of Vengevine before Survival.
The bigger issue, in my opinion, is that WotC just hates Top as a card. They had to ban the thing in Kamigawa standard for chrissake because it "made tournaments take too long." I personally barely glance at the cards I look at it when I spin...every now and then an actual decision has to be made and I need a couple of seconds to plan our my next couple of turns, but that's infrequent. The "time problem" with Top comes from the fact that an awful lot of people are either slower thinkers in general and/or aren't familiar with playing the card / the decks that run the card and thus the decisions that are required to be made. This is also not a solvable problem, really, which probably adds to WotC's distaste for it. In the hands of a capable player, Top is a powerful card which almost certainly takes less time off the match clock than fetchlands do. Unfortunately, you can't base decisions of if a card is tolerable time-wise on good player skill. You have to base around the average, and Top has always been a borderline offender there.
Scroll Rack is definitely an option. I would put that under the Sylvan Library pile, though -- powerful effects that die to our own Deeds. On the same token, it's possible that some sort of Howling Mine list is plausible, on the theory that we draw more/better cards than the opponent. It may be time for Phyrexian Arena to re-enter consideration, as well. Obviously the weakness there is to Abrupt Decay, and it could be better to just run Night's Whispers. Not sure. Sun Titan does bring Arena back if needed, so perhaps for white lists?
Currently the disappointment is great. What will happen or must happen on monday 13th we will see. SDT/DTT or not. Until then i will wait with selling/restocking my collection and continue from there. It's is either gonna be playing the awesome sweet decks i have been running now like NicFit or i will sell it all! And continue to play the deck that is nr1 in the meta. I am done for now what all this shit...
The only spark of hope left is seeing the 2 aggro loam decks and lands deck making top8 and learn what those decks where making the difference and ultimatly try to migitate that into a NicFit shell.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Originally Posted by Chatto
As someone who plays Blue & Nicfit I actually wouldnt mind a Top banning, Miracles is a tough matchup game 1 so I am ok with that card being gone. I also think it would be productive for Nicfit because it mean more people play brainstorm in their high variance deck which is also a good thing.
If people refuse to do that I think it means we drop deed from a 3of and move to point click removal and 1/2 deluge. This allows sylvan library which I think it just better than arena. In fact I like Bob more than Arena. I think this is going to differentiate the builds more as you either you to be an aggro deck with the therapy disruption engine or play blue to get access to actual countermagic which is the issue with playing a non-blue control deck. you cant stop the top of their deck.
So what you're saying is: invest in Libraries, Scroll Racks, Diabolic Intents, Grim Tutors, hell Vampiric Tutors, and sell all my Tops. Let's do this.
I will be very fucking sad if SDT gets banned, it's one of the few things keeping JunkFit even a little relevant. These people are going to force me to play blue, which I can't afford, so I'll have to start running 4 Night's Whisper, 4 Deathrite Shaman to make up for the lifeloss. Doesn't sound that bad actually.
I'd much rather see Storm take a hit than Miracles IMO. We're very resilient to Terminus and Jace, if we play smart, but we're not very resilient to losing on turn 1. If they're going to hamstring a deck, they might as well spread the love.
I also wanted to say that we shouldn't write off Woodland Bellower, our new fuzzy 6/5 friend that tutors a 3cmc green creature. While it's not Primeval Titan, it can generate some serious value if we're grabbing Eternal Witness, Fierce Empath, QPM/Rec Sage, Sprouting Thrinax etc. when our games are going long. This thing allows 3-for-1 plays and can represent a 2 turn clock, that's right up my alley.
If you want to get cute, BUG people can grab Nulltread Gargantuan, put the Bellower on top of the library, then tutor again next turn. Also Shardless Agent.
You can get even cuter and grab Groundbreaker :X
Additionally, cards yet to be printed could break this thing. I'm going to grab one for the ol' NicFit Box of Possibilities (where I keep all my favorite Timmy cards).
All I'm saying is it would be wise of us to prepare for the -possibility-, not that we should run out and buy things or whatever. I'd prefer to have a rough idea of what to expect to want moving forward in a Topless world. Is Grim Tutor actually good enough? Is it possible to make a functional Living Wishboard for both white and red? What options exist?
That way, if and when something DOES happen, we know what steps we need to take and what exact cards we need to buy as opposed to running around like headless chickens trying to figure shit out while the speculators buy up everything.
I agree, and I think you have the right idea by going one of two ways:
1.) eschewing Deed for Deluge/Damnation to protect fancy filter cards like Sylvan Library and Scroll Rack
or
2.) replacing filter effects with raw card advantage and keeping Deed
I personally can't imagine playing NicFit without the Pernicious Monster, it can literally pull you ahead in seemingly unwinnable matches. I'd rather play 1 shot draw spells and increase threat density overall.
Arianrhod, what would your sample core look like for a Sidisi-based, post-SDT list?
I don't see SDT being banned. I see other stuff miracles/blue legacy decks run like DTT being the bigger threat. Terminus should just go away, but that's me.
I agree with what @Bobmans is saying overall about the aggro loam decks.
To the topic at hand, I would love to see some new Nic Fit/NO thing happen. Natural Order gives you the sac outlet + bomb/value bro all on color. I would make GSZ and NO the core of the deck but not go into the combo elves route. There's so much potential in a shell of veteran + cabal + gsz + NO.
@new cards: Haven't had enough time to sift through themall, let alone try new ideas.
@Sidisi, Undead Vizier -- why haven't I heard more about this card? Talk about making Nic Fit the legacy EDH deck
Basing a list off of a 5 drop that basically requires another creature in play is not a recipe for a consistent deck. If we want to play a draw spell whisper is probably the best. Not playing bstorm and dig just to not play blue still seems wrong to me.
A topless world would be great, really great actually. Imagine all those...
A world without Sensei's Divining Top legal in any constructed format, on the other hand? No, that won't happen. And damn, I think I found someone who hates speculators as much as me.
Have we considered Dark Petition? Can we put enough spells in the GY to make it work? It's basically a black Green Sun's Zenith for stuff costing BBB or less, and if we have extra mana, we can even go bigger. Seems nice paired with carpet of flowers, for example.
Just a thought here, i was looking into Skeletal Scrying. We have the mana and the cards to exile, but not always the life to pay for this to be big.
Also we have Diabolic Intent for quality.
In a list with Sun Titan, running both Deed and Sylvan Library should be fine. Also that list would contain a SFM package (simply because i find Siege Rhino as a card "dumb"). Jitte provides way more utility and acts as removal. Batterskull has vigilance/lifelink and is hard to get rid of. Making both better cards in different situations. Also both swords of Fire and Ice // Light and Shadow provide cardadvantage. You can justify running any combinatiom of equipment is fine.
Anyway i would opt for cardquality in NifFit decks over cardadvantage any day. So snap replacing 3x SDT would probably result in +2 Intent and +1 Sylvan Library, even with Deed.
Having thay said, i do not think it would solve issue's NicFit currently has in the metagame. We already get a step behind during the early turns. Also there are to many decks we have difficulty beating. One thing that is really powerful today is Wasteland + Life from the Loam. Those cards are the weakspot for the decks we have most trouble with. Also with cards like Sylvan Safekeeper and Titania we could be making a sifferent direction in terms of abusing our manabase and ramping capabilities.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
How about Woolly Thoctar? It's horribly off-colour and has no evasion/trample whatsoever, but dumping 11 power on the table for 6 mana sounds like good times.
@the making Nic Fit the Legacy EDH-deck: That's what my build is for, lol. Some of the highlights so far:
- Feeding a Summoner's Egg hiding an Emrakul to Phyrexian Tower and then hardcast Elesh Norn with mana open for Daze.
- Lock a burn player out with Iona and drop Emrakul the next turn.
- Having an opponent attacking me with a 4+ power creature while I have an Egg on the board and a couple of turns earlier revealed an Emrakul with Fierce Empath. Still lost that game because I was too greedy (should have gotten Elesh Norn to wipe most of his board), but still.
- Flashback Therapy naming StP (hit!), hardcast Blazing Archon (SB card). Opponent sadly looks at his Karakas.
- Hitting with Therapy 4 times in 2 turns (hitting FoW, 2 Hymn To Tourach, Jace the Mind Sculptor & Lilliana) and with the last flashback pop out Griselbrand from under the Egg. I had the f*ing nuts, Griselbrand popped out on turn 3.
- Forcing opponents to give me a Path to Exile with Tasigur, then take out the one creature they had left
- Having an opponent return me a Diabolic Intent with Tasigur, then the next turn proceed to cast DRS, Diabolic Intent, tutor for Rest In Peace and cast said card. Poor dredge player.
So much fun! It doesn't do well in tournaments, but it's so. much. fun! These are just the cool things and succes stories that happen though. For each of these games, there are at least twice as many "and then I almost got there" or bad beat stories.
Last edited by Echelon; 07-07-2015 at 02:21 AM.
Oddly enough I'm currently playing:
3 explorers
2 deathrite
1 safekeeper
1 teeg
1 scooze
1 courser
1 witness
2 kotr
2 titania
1 sigarda
4 therapy
2 exploration
3 tops
3 gsz
1 intent
2 plow
1 path
3 decay
1 g charn
2 deed
2 bayou
2 savannah
1 scrubland
3 verdant catacombs
1 windswept heath
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
4 wasteland
1 thespian stage
1 darkdepths
1 volraths tower
1 karakas
1 Dryad arbor
Sb
1 pithing needle
1 surgical extraction
2 Thoughtseize
1 dryad militant
1 zealous persecution
1 decay
2 teeg
1 loam
1 pulse
1 o ring
1 grip
1 thrun
1 cataclysm
Here's the issue: Top is secretly a split card.
Top has two different modes, depending on when you draw it in a game. Top is either a ~2 drop that emulates Ponder in that it fixes your next 2-3 turns of draws, or it is a ~5 drop that lets you combo spins and shuffles to "tutor" for bombs/answers that you need at that stage of the game. Between turn 2 and turn 5, we'll say as rough examples, you very rarely end up actually using Top. If you have it on turn 2 and spin, that's cool -- but you always have better things to do over the next several turns, rather than spinning that early Top.
We are not lacking in options for the Turn 5 Top half. Any number of card advantage engines exist at 4+ mana and are adequate to our needs. What we'll be missing instead is the Turn 2 Top half, and -that- is the huge hit. Natural Selection is a really awful alternative since it doesn't replace itself, but that's TYPE of card we need...something that can come down super early and help us assemble our early game. Realistically, I think that Night's Whisper is the best option for this -- it just means we're probably going to want to tilt a bit more towards life gain options. For white, this isn't an issue due to Baneslayer (and/or Thune) alongside the traditional Finks, ObBaloth, Tusk, etc.
Red versions are what I'm most worried about, to be honest. Something like Punishing really, really relies on Top to keep the card quality up over a long, attritiony match. Red versions may want to look into something like Chandra, Pyromaster as an option. Red has been getting a lot of these pseudo draw engines lately, and one of them may be good enough. Pyromaster is PROBABLY the closest I can think of right now -- she was excellent when Thragtusk was in standard, anyway...something to consider.
@Tom4ik -- Being beholden to play blue is not part of the agenda. Blue versions have not shown any kind of historical dominance, and a lot of people I know who play Nic Fit cannot afford blue cards because they got in too late and the floor was already too high. I'm not saying that I think that playing a nonblue deck is a budget alternative -- I've played an awful lot of white and red nic fits (as well as blue versions), and I very much enjoy putting the screws to blue players. There have been many periods throughout legacy the last couple of years where we've gained in market share and win% by virtue of NOT being blue and NOT having our shit get hit by Red Blasts.
Far be it from my intent to say that blue versions do not have their own advantages. They 100% do, and the advantages that they do have will only increase in potency if Top gets hit. But I vehemently disagree that we're to the point where the format dictates "be blue or be playing an inferior deck." An awful lot of people believe that, and it's simply not true. There are so many options -- no reason to sheep the masses.
I'll try to brew some potential lists tomorrow and get them posted. I've mostly been focused on tuning vintage and identifying standard for postrotation, but I'll be turning my attention more heavily to legacy for the next week or two.
How does your list play and feel in the current meta? (If tested ofc)
True that to Top. It does sooo much, but you probably nailed it, that it hurts most during the early turns not being able to draw what we want. A card to consider here is Mirri's Guile.
It drops on T1 and spin the top for free. Yes it dies to deed, but the point is it sling you to midgame and then we hopefully find enough/a new one.
Also theres a synergy between Mirris Guile, fetchland and Sylvan Library. Giving you reset top between Mirri and Library.
Also with the talk of removing Deed in any number Mirri becomes more valid. (Removing deed is still wrong i believe). A lot of times i was able to remove like Jitte, Thalia, Mom, Germ token, SoFaI and Revoker (on SDT). Actions like this can never be achieved with Abrupt Decay and Punishing Fire alone. Especially if our board only has SDT, Deed and a bunch of lands.
The problem i have with Chandra is that it costs 4 mana (2RR) and we want something during the early turns.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Sorry for the double post, but i felt that editing the previous one was not the better choice.
Tje list provided by UncleTiggy put me on this direction. Nice one Tiggy.
I had some thoughts on the lands heavy JUNK list. Rather I wanted it to be JUND, but Knight is such a sweet card and cannot be replaced in Jund and Karakas is probably better for a number of matchups. Also Path to Exile might be a better choice then Punishing Fire since it can hit the bigger creatures played by MUD or Gurmag and Tasigur, etc. On top of that, pushing 3 Groves would put to much strain on the manabase / numbers.
// 60 cards main:
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Life from the Loam
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Diabolic Intent
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
3 Verdant Catacomb
3 Windswepth Heath
1 Karakas
1 Volrath's Stronghold
4 Wasteland
//Lands to consider adding:
Horizon Canopy
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Treetop Village
Dryad Arbor
// 15 cards board:
2 Carpet of Flowers
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Choke
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
//Sideboard considerations:
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Dryad Militant
3 Leyline of the Void
Also i would consider going to 61 cards maindeck to add one of the consideration lands. In this one i am leaning towards Horizon Canopy as an early color fix and lategame draw engine with Loam.
This list has the utility of Loam + Wasteland along with Knights to find land and get a beefy beater. Also, because Knight is CMC 3, i added Sun Titan as a recus engine and the famous Titan + Deed lock. Also Titan returns lands giving a possible 2 land per turn on the battlefield (Wasteland)
Basicly the SDT is replaced by Sylvan Library, Mirri's Guile and Diabolic Intent. They all work different and having multiples do not conflict or are dead. With fetchland (and loam) you can peek at the top 3 with Guile, shuffle and draw 3 new with Library. Also with a Canopy you could draw one from Mirri and reset cracking fetch before Library draws.
Another consideration might be Dryad Arbor. It gets fetched to chumpblock or as a fetchable sac for Intent. With Loam it will also be a recurring blocker (instead of Wasteland 4?)
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Here are a few comments:
1) You might need another "real" life gain creature.
2) Phyrexian tower is a must have with Knight.
3) Crop rotation is better than 2nd loam
4) You should think about entomb as well
5) STP > PTE in this list.
6) You should assess whether Sun Titan is better than Dromoka dragonlord in such a list. Sun might be better G1. Dragon will be better G2 & G3.
I tested a lot this kind of deck (KotR + Titania + Safekeeper) with some minor tweaks. And you'll be punished for being too much grave oriented in G2 & G3.
Since I'm most active in this thread:
Apologies to every reader, here, as I had planned to play Nic Fit @ GP Lille but I had to take a different route as one of my friend sneaked in at the very last moment and obviously he did not have any real paper deck with him.
So I had to dismantle Nic Fit to provide proper fetches, dual lands for everybody.
I played Imperial Tax @ the main event to a 4/3 drop. Bad pairings and a misplay in the 7th round prevent me from going further. That's what you get when you are not as familiar with a deck as you can be with your pet deck.
--> Quick report can be found here
Anyway, I had great fun but did not get to meet Bobmans nor MD Ghost.
How did it go for you, guys ?
On the Legacy Sunday Serie, I have piloted a homebrew deck to an astonished 4/2/1 finish. I lost the final round against an American miracle player which was coming from N.J.
--> List can be found here
Here is the list I had planned to play for the GP:
2 Plains
3 Swamp
3 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Savannah
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
4 Veteran explorer
1 Sakura Tribe Elder
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Courser of Kruphix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Acidic Slime
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Recurring nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Swords to Plowshare
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1. Agreed, Thragtusk or Dragonlord shouls fix this.
2. I am not really seeing the interaction your after here. Also with Intent i didnt want to have to much sac outlets. And already running 5 colorless mana. Also i think Stronghold is an important card.
3. Not sure yet. I see its application, but i am not sold.
4. Entomb for just Loam or a loam target? Also wouldnt Entomb make it even more grave dependent?
5. Could you elaborate? We already run 4 explorer so giving away basics shouldnt hinder at that point i feel.
6. I played Sun Titan and must say it was so incredibly powerful. Never landed a Dragonlord so i have no experience to compare those two. Only that i find Titan such and awesome card, but that doesnt say anything.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
As i wrote at "Sylvan Plug":
I had some last minute family issuses and sadly cancelled my GP Lille trip... so sorry i missed our meeting this year! My plan was to battle all the blue.decs, because the last months of test games proved me to play Sylvan Plug (hey it also contains some nice & weird Stuff) as the right weapon of choice at the GP (and i am glad, that another kind of chalice.dec: Aggro Loam do so well!).
I expect the Ban-Hammer next monday and i totally understand the discussion of: How can we play Nic Fit without Sensei's Divining Top?
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