[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Lemnear]

Nice matchups you got there xD

I rather play against combo all day than against MUD and D&T

[Jonathan Alexander]

I'm looking into Grinding Station, and I noticed that the recent lists (Pascal Wagner, etc.) look a bit different than the original lists that had no tutors in the maindeck. It would seem that not all of the information in the primer as far as how to approach games applies to new build that opts to play all four tutors in the maindeck.

Jona, how has the way you play the game changed with these newer builds of Grinding Station? Are you still on the same plan of making lots of land drops, or does having the tutors change how you play? Do you use Infernal Tutor in the same way that ANT does?

The Tutors themselves don't change much, but the metagame has completely changed. When Canadian, Maverick and UW/r Stoneblade were ~80% of the (winning) metagame, playing draw, go was a reasonable plan. In 2012 Miracles, BUG and Sneak & Show became decks, so there was much more pressure to win early in the game. Tutor allows you to play that kind of game while not being useless in the longer games.
I'm not sure what you mean by using Tutors the same way ANT does, but I'm willing to answer that question if you can be more specific. I mostly use Tutor to get Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual, Duress, Dark Ritual and Tendrils, roughly in that order.

The primer on this forum is completely outdated and I should probably delete it entirely. Also, at this point, I don't think there's any reason to discriminate between ANT and Grinding Station. Kai runs Ad Nauseam with 2 Past in Flames, I sometimes run Ad Nauseam with 2 Tendrils and lots of people run 2 Past in Flames 1-2 Tendrils 1 Empty. It should all be lumped together as Cabal Ritual Storm in my eyes.

There's a fair bit of information on my blog, I suggest you read my latest post, maybe some of the older stuff. I'll probably start working on some matchup analyses starting Monday, but I also have some other data I'd like to share.

If you have any further questions, feel free to private message me. I like talking Storm, but I don't like forum discussions very much because things tend to get messy.

Also, is anyone on here good with simulations? I'd like to run some simulations for Ad Nauseam to aggregate win percentages for some common situations and see how to optimise the decklist to accomodate the card.

[phazonmutant]

The Tutors themselves don't change much, but the metagame has completely changed. When Canadian, Maverick and UW/r Stoneblade were ~80% of the (winning) metagame, playing draw, go was a reasonable plan. In 2012 Miracles, BUG and Sneak & Show became decks, so there was much more pressure to win early in the game. Tutor allows you to play that kind of game while not being useless in the longer games.
I'm not sure what you mean by using Tutors the same way ANT does, but I'm willing to answer that question if you can be more specific. I mostly use Tutor to get Past in Flames, Cabal Ritual, Duress, Dark Ritual and Tendrils, roughly in that order.

Ah, I didn't realize that's what motivated the change in the Grinding Station list. Very interesting!

The primer on this forum is completely outdated and I should probably delete it entirely. Also, at this point, I don't think there's any reason to discriminate between ANT and Grinding Station. Kai runs Ad Nauseam with 2 Past in Flames, I sometimes run Ad Nauseam with 2 Tendrils and lots of people run 2 Past in Flames 1-2 Tendrils 1 Empty. It should all be lumped together as Cabal Ritual Storm in my eyes.

Agreed, and the name makes sense.

Also, is anyone on here good with simulations? I'd like to run some simulations for Ad Nauseam to aggregate win percentages for some common situations and see how to optimise the decklist to accomodate the card.

You'll have to be a bit more specific about what you're looking for. I do software development professionally and know how to math so I can probably do it, but I haven't yet felt motivated to make a real simulation. On the face of it, that sounds like a complex task. I do have a spreadsheet which calculates the average number of cards you can draw off Ad Nauseam given a decklist (annotated with CMC) and a starting life total: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...Wc&usp=sharing

The decklists and assumptions look pretty outdated, I haven't updated it in years. Feel free to leave a comment on the Google doc if you have some suggestions.

[Jonathan Alexander]

Basically, what I am looking for is a spreadsheet that tells me how likely I am to win off Ad Nauseam the turn I cast it for a given board state, life total and list. I realise there are infinite possibilities, but having a rough idea how likely you are to win in the more common scenarios would be pretty cool. I actually started doing that manually, but my sample size (100 for each list for each scenario) seems so low.

I have no idea how hard it actually is to compute that, but there aren't many ways to win off Ad Nauseam.
There are really only four ways to win:
1) You reveal Tendrils and the mana you need to cast both Tendrils and enough spells to reach a lethal storm count.
2) You reveal Infernal Tutor, mana to cast it and Lion's Eye Diamond to be able to use it.
3) You reveal Past in Flames and either Lion's Eye Diamond to turn on a Tutor in your grave or a Tendrils that would otherwise not be lethal.
4) You reveal Tutor or Tendrils and Lion's Eye Diamonds, no mana to cast it, but you can Brainstorm them on top of your library and then cast them off your LEDs.

There's also the scenarios where it's better to continue digging with cantrips rather than Ad Nauseam, but that will ultimately lead to one of the four options explained above. This probably complicates things a lot.
Actually, I did some math on when to stop revealing cards with Ad Nauseam. I will need to revise (read: complicate) my formula a bit, but the results I have so far are pretty interesting. (Basically, I only calculated when to stop according to how many additional cards you can see, but it should be done for actual combinations of cantrips you can cast.)

[IlCannone]

Nice matchups you got there xD

Yeah... :(

I managed to loose the final chance Trial finals against BUG Delver 1:2 around half past 12 in the night before the Main Event (would have granted Sleep-In+VIP and Byes of course).
Guess things would have played out otherwise if I had won that ... but that's life :)

EDIT:
It was all about loosing every die roll and getting comboed out T1 or T2 every game. Really every game. There was Round 1 oppo on the play Sol land, Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Dig through time, dead.
Or Turn 1 Griselbrand from Reanimator with counterbackup.
So it seems like some slow hands combined with really good opponent draws got me there...

Fun fact: With Kai watching me play a Trial against OmniTell and advising me to board out Empty the Warrens i lost Game 2 of Round 3 to a Leyline of Sanctity from OmniTell (wtf) which I couldn't handle in time...

I learnt much that weekend and felt really prepared for the GP and really did not expect to be ****** that hard...
But I will enjoy your reports of course :)

[CabalTherapy]

Went 5:3 without byes. Very disappointed. Had to take a deep breath and drink some water after my 8th round loss. Played mediocre in some rounds and got rough luck in some other. That's how things go sometimes.

Congratulations to all stormers. Was nice to meet you again and some of you for the first time. The weekend was nonetheless amazing. Had a blast singing in the car, almost got crushed by a tram in Antwerp, drinking some weird energy drinks, meeting so many people and unintentionally cuddle with Kai Sawamatrix in the backseat (5 dudes in the car).

Looking forward to seeing you next year at (hopefully not in France) the next GP or in Prague for the MKM series.

[Kanti]

Yeah... :(

I managed to loose the final chance Trial finals against BUG Delver 1:2 around half past 12 in the night before the Main Event (would have granted Sleep-In+VIP and Byes of course).
Guess things would have played out otherwise if I had won that ... but that's life :)

EDIT:
It was all about loosing every die roll and getting comboed out T1 or T2 every game. Really every game. There was Round 1 oppo on the play Sol land, Petal, Show and Tell, Omniscience, Dig through time, dead.
Or Turn 1 Griselbrand from Reanimator with counterbackup.
So it seems like some slow hands combined with really good opponent draws got me there...

Fun fact: With Kai watching me play a Trial against OmniTell and advising me to board out Empty the Warrens i lost Game 2 of Round 3 to a Leyline of Sanctity from OmniTell (wtf) which I couldn't handle in time...

I learnt much that weekend and felt really prepared for the GP and really did not expect to be ****** that hard...
But I will enjoy your reports of course :)

Just wanna say but from reading the Omnitell boards isn't Leyline something you should have maybe expected? The deck started with a 1-of main-deck with the other 3 in the sideboard. Anyhow, hearing your luck makes me want to cry. Seriously, 4 SnT decks, and they ALL race you? What an absolute bummer. Better luck next time!

[IlCannone]

Nope I really didn't see it coming. As I said I was advised to board them out, after I didn't do it in the trials :)
I had 2 Krosan Grips boarded because they CAN be good but not more enchantment-hate.

Thanks for your wishes. Better focusing now on the stories of the succesful guys to remember why I'm playing that deck.

It was also heartbreaking seeing Kai getting overrun by Elves 0-2 in Round 9 of Day1 with nothing he could do just because the deck didn't deliver a kill in time... :/

[sawatarix]

1. It was a a pleasure to meet you all at the GP.

2. Empty does nothing against Omnitell, depending on your opponent you can board in 1 Chain of Vapor if he is on Leylines. But since Dig Through Time is a cardadvantage engine there is no need for it.

3. Omnitell is a Turn 3-5 Deck most of the time so it should be really easy to kill them before they do.

4. Reanimator is a bitch ;)

5. I'll drop my report tomorrow

[Jonathan Alexander]

If you board in enchantment removal against OmniTell, you obviously bring Grip over Chain.

[IlCannone]

to 3. : I was always dead on Turn2 when I except one game when my hand didnt deliver Turn2 Kill through counters...

[mutantknight]

Yea the omnitell matchup has seemed very frustrating for me.

My board has 2 xantids and 2 chains of which I boarded in 1. I did steal game 2 by bouncing his omni with his dig on the stack and 1 card in hand which was pretty sick!

I went 5-2 in a local legacy 1k with both losses to Omnitell (out of the 3 matches) including the win and in. Seems like it's inherently a rough match up but definitely winnable. All matches went to 3 games and in g3 of the win and in round I lose with having the kill in hand on their t3. Just needed a passing of the turn.

[Sloshthedark]

According to my notes I'm 7:0 vs Omnitell this year... I was lucky sometimes but generaly I like the MU and much more than Sneak Show for sure... I think Grip is not worth SBing, It forces you to have 3 mana up and does not deal with first spell cast... My tournament report should be in the forum in +/- 8 hours

[Jonathan Alexander]

OmniTell is okay if you have Swarms, but it gets much worse if they have discard. I also have a pretty good record against Mono Blue or UR OmniTell, but it's much worse against UB OmniTell, which is certainly more common where I play (this is what previously led me to stating OmniTell was one of our worst matchups, I played against UB almost exclusively, which, apparently, is not representative).

[nevilshute]

Hey everybody. Tried my hand at a tournament report from GP Lille: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...514#post892514

[JDK]

OmniTell is okay if you have Swarms, but it gets much worse if they have discard. I also have a pretty good record against Mono Blue or UR OmniTell, but it's much worse against UB OmniTell, which is certainly more common where I play (this is what previously led me to stating OmniTell was one of our worst matchups, I played against UB almost exclusively, which, apparently, is not representative).

That's what I experienced as well.

[deucegg]

hey,
i havent played ant in a while, but im really interested in the 2 pif kind of grinding station lists you guys have been playing. As I got basically no experience with this version i just wanted to know how problematic deathrite shaman is. Double pif seems to be pretty graveyard heavy. Or do you mainly combo out 'naturally' without having to flashback infernal tutor, eg by chaining rituals into stormspell?
Apart from that, this version seems to be slower, so is the traditional one (adn Main) better suited for combo- and delver-heavy metas?

Plus I used to hate playing vs TeamAmerica. Their combination of counterspells, discard and fast clock was annoying.
I used to board in bobs swarms and cov, which was hit or miss as they bring in charms.. Whats your plan for both versions here?
Thanks in advance

[Reagens]

Nevilshute could you please post your boarding plans where you board in the pyromancers?
I'm interested in the strategy :)

Would you still play them at your next tournament?

[meffeo]

almost got crushed by a tram in Antwerp

Highlight of the weekend.

Congratulations to all the stormers, especially to Kai and Martin.

[sawatarix]

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