You don't get it and neither bother to read the last like 4 pages of this thread and want me to go though all that again despite my hints in the last post I made? Not gonna happen.Originally Posted by blind
You should not fear SDT. If you fear SDT because of Terminus, step up your game. You don't lose because of Terminus, but because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.
If you don't understand the fundamental Problem between Cavern + Glimpse/NO/Symbiote/SB discard/etc. I suggest playtesting
The Problem with that Drain-Elf is that the only matchup in which you get a big enough amount of Elves into play and them staying there are those you win regardless of the wincon anyways, but it does nothing against combo unlike NO->Ruric for example or wins on the spot with just 3 other creatures in play like NO. It does not improve the worst matchups for Elves, but quite the opposite.
I already wrote it in the thread. Reclamation Sage simply owned a S&T -> Omniscience and ran away with the game after that desasterous 2-for-0 from the OmniTell player. Guess it was even a off-screen feature match and there was no 4-Sage Elves deck involved, but the play I was talking about in the last weeks just happened and won that game.
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It was me on the feature match :-)
I have read but not a decklist, just speak. So it's was I don't understand.You don't get it and neither bother to read the last like 4 pages of this thread and want me to go though all that again despite my hints in the last post I made? Not gonna happen.
You think a instant bordswiffer for W isn't a problem? It's. If SDT is banned, Miracle is a good deck? Without SDT, Counterbalance is a problem? No and No. I have never lost with only counterbalance in board. But I have lost with only SDT. It's was we played Null Rod.You should not fear SDT. If you fear SDT because of Terminus, step up your game. You don't lose because of Terminus, but because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.
Yeah obvious... I don't play Glimpse and I have a very good result with that. Decklist Glimpse isn't good now. Grixis killing your hand (probe Cabal) and SDT+CB killing Glimpse. You in Discard Vs Miracle?If you don't understand the fundamental Problem between Cavern + Glimpse/NO/Symbiote/SB discard/etc. I suggest playtesting
S&T : you played Reclamation sage, He played Omnscience and you think you win? He can kill you in reponse. I have never win with this tech, all time he kill me in rep. All time..
So thruth.but the standard list is fairly unshakable until somebody starts posting results with a drastically different build
If you go by ratios, we actually have roughly the same ratios of normal lands / fast mana (inc. Cradle) / business+win conditions as ANT does. The place where we have "overstock" is in mana generation. We typically have 2 slots of disruption, they play 6. We replace those with more mana.
I like this list.
It boils down to: "Present me a final 75 to I don't have to deal with details myself"? The cuts are imo pretty obvious so I did not bother with a list.
Terminus is NOT a problem, but you thinking it is tells me that you are likely overextending and thus losing. You blame Terminus and SDT for losing despite running a shitload of cardadvantage to even out 3-for-1 losses. You want to see SDT banned because you misplay against Terminus? *slowclap*
So you cut a cardadvantage engine and complain that you can't recover from Terminus. Find the flaw.
He MIGHT can. If he/she does not have the instant speed kill in hand, they die. If they have to sculpt an instant speed win before casting S&T they need extra time which makes your discard better and slows them down so you might NO before they can combo. I explained this already two times before in the last couple of pages and tried to fight the shallow thinking that "Sage kills OmniTell on its own".
This is the lazy approach: "Let someone else convince me with big tournament results or I don't change a thing and rather bitch about the status quo". Do you accept Cockatrice results?
Oh! Congratz! Just for confirmation: You killed Carsten Kötters UR OmniTell with a Sage out of your Maverick/Loam/dunno? He told me later that day in front of the venue about that :)
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Dude, I started to play Elves in Legacy with Chord and Pact version, so please don't talk me like I don't know what I speak. :) I have win several tournament with this deck, lot of top 8 and lot of years. :)
NO ! :) I don't understand how you can cut obvious 3 cards for 3 more Reclamation Sage.The cuts are imo pretty obvious so I did not bother with a list.
Classic decklist, explain me what you cut.1 Misty Rainforest
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
In french it's : mauvaise foi. Yes only terminus isn't a problem. SDT is a problem not only with miracle cards. SDT make a Card Quality and THIS CARD QUALITY kill us. SDT installs a strategy and this stragegy kill us on the long term.Terminus is NOT a problem, but you thinking it is tells me that you are likely overextending and thus losing. You blame Terminus and SDT for losing despite running a shitload of cardadvantage to even out 3-for-1 losses. You want to see SDT banned because you misplay against Terminus? *slowclap*
But you explain me :So you cut a cardadvantage engine and complain that you can't recover from Terminus. Find the flaw.With CB in Board, opponent play terminus (classic set up Vs Miracle). You want what? Your Glimpse? Or my Fauna? Fauna make CA and she is really better than Glimpse Vs contrôle or Grixis. I have win a lot of tournament with Fauna and I have never understand why people don't play this card.because of Counterbalance preventing from ever getting a board again.
I asked Jean Mary Accart (he played OmniShow, famous french player, top 8 GP Legacy, blablabla) : If I put Reclamation Sage on S&T, you kill me in reponse? His reponse : Yeah 90%. And I can just put Emrakul, no Omniscience.He MIGHT can. If he/she does not have the instant speed kill in hand, they die. If they have to sculpt an instant speed win before casting S&T they need extra time which makes your discard better and slows them down so you might NO before they can combo. I explained this already two times before in the last couple of pages and tried to fight the shallow thinking that "Sage kills OmniTell on its own".
My Decklist with Fauna is good for this set up (rep S&T, tutor Reclamation and put it) but he kill me in reponse... It's was Ruric is fucking better :)
I'm the first men to innove with this deck so I don't understand why write that. I think I have build 500 decklist of elves in Legacy.. (Intuition, Mystical tutor, Beck, full combo pact, brainstorm, buried alive VV, Survival, Curio, etc.....)This is the lazy approach: "Let someone else convince me with big tournament results or I don't change a thing and rather bitch about the status quo". Do you accept Cockatrice results?
Thanks :) Since Craterhoof Behemoth, Elfball isn't a Glimpse combo deck but more a Naural Order Combo Deck. Glimpse is the best card but the cards for this strategy isn't really good. You don't want lot of Druidesse, you don't want lot of Nettle without Glimpse in hand. In fact I wanted only a good draw. Or Draw Nettle, Druidesse isn't really good. I wanted good cards when it goes wrong. I don't play ElfBall, I play Elves Advantage ! :) And this Decklist is strong ! I have cut 1 Hoof for 1 Sylvan MD and the sideboard has evolved.I like this list.
I think we all have to wait until the new ban-hammer and see if we have to get a simple rollback to the pre Khans Meta (DtB for Elves), if DTT is gone, or if we can use the "chaos" if the ugly Top (and Miracle as a deck) also gets killed, or if nothing happen and we still have to fight the Miracle and Omnitell monsters around.
If the latter will happen, feel free to discuss Lemnears "More Sages" Idea again (which doesn't sound bad in the current meta), otherwise: Blinds ideas with Fauna Shaman and Vengevine + (and that seems new) including the common NO tech sounds very fresh, or we can (or must...) simply pack the sideboard full with blue hatestuff like chokes and Kgrips and hope it is enough (i dont like it...).
Thanks to Magic Origins, the Shaman of the Pack will also get some test runs around the world.
I will switch the Shaman with my Packmaster (which is my 4th NO slot) and i will also run a 2nd copy (for grindy games) along with a 2nd copy of Sage (untill the meta gets crushed next monday) and see how it works. It's true, that NO will be the fast&safe win if you opponent can't interact with the deck well enough, because it uses a small amount of creatures and simply stomp out the common (and lovely) Hoof-Kill.
Shaman of the Pack will act as a "backup" (see Packmaster) and if the Elves-Army can attack some turns (which is the common plan, if your opponent isn't a goldfish) it is totally ok to deal a small amount of damage with the Shaman as a finishing move. What i like is, that it is another angle of attack, which will make it also harder for opponents to find the right mix of disruption (you face a Cage against NO and play Shaman for "GG" etc.).
Another idea would be the cut of NO and the 2nd Hoof for: 3x Shaman of the Pack and 1x Gaddock Teeg (which will win against Storm G1) etc. - it will be more about combat, bouncing shaman and/or resolving glimpse (which gets better with more creatures).
This deck will evolve after the next monday, one way or another
TEAM MtG Berlin
...and this makes people blind for problems caused by shifting metagames. I suffer from this effect like everyone else who is playing a certain deck for a very long period of time. It's like keep playing Goblins or Doomsday "because the deck worked flawless 7 years ago" and ignoring all that happened over the years which harmed the decks directly or indirectly. Elves are challenged by Miracles, Blade and, OmniTell ... we have to tackle THESE issues.
2 Bayou
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
3 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Reclamation Sage
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
3 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
due to my experience, more than 8 mana accelerants in this metagame create some do-nothing hands/draws which just ask to be blown out.
Now we come to the point: You die to the cardadvantage your opponent creates with the combination of SDT/Terminus/Counterbalance. The problem here is that you can't really hate out SDT with mainboardable cards, but you can deal with Counterbalance/Omniscience/Batterskull/Jitte/Chalice on a common base which makes more than 50% of the metagame and significantly improves your game 1.
What do you do to tackle the problem with SDT/Terminus/Counterbalance? You bitch around and want it banned aka waiting for someone else to fix your problem.
I want Sage ... destroying the Counterbalance and installing a clock. Fauna makes no cardadvantage. You drop the creature and need additional ones to do anything. Tbh the card is slow as fuck which is a problem itself in this metagame and the reason I stopped exploring this angle further after the tests ~3 months ago. Fauna/Vengevine loses a lot of appeal if the mass removal of choice being Terminus.
I know Jean-Mary, no need to mention him here, but tell me how your Fauna/Vengevine does improve the matchup? Or the matchup against Blade or Miracles? It does not and that's the point.
Yeah, because we bank on your opponent not dropping S&T before our turn 3 and us having a Fauna Shaman in play which is not longer affected by summoning sickness so you can fetch for Ruric. *slowclap*
You toyed around with a lot of stuff which had obvious weaknesses. What are you trying to tell me here? That you skip evaluation and reason before putting time into testing and the time you put into unneccessary durdling has to be credited?
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Hello to everyone ,
This weekend i played at the gp lille whith elves.
O finish at the 55th place.
This is my list:
I made 8-1 in the first day Including a feature match against delver grixis (my only lost in the first day) muligan to 3 in first game, win 2nd and lost 3rd to a from the top counterspell :-/
Those were my matchups:
R1-jund won 2-0
R2-bug delver won 2-0
R3-merfolks won 2-0
R4-imperial taxes won 2-1
R5-grixis delver lost 1-2 (feature match)
R6-mud won 2-1
R7-elves won 2-0
R8-storm won 2-0
R9-miracles won 2-0
Day2
R10-omnitell lost 0-2
R11-miracles won 2-0
R12-merfolks won 2-0
R13-miracles draw 1-1
R14-miracles lost 0-2
R15-4color loam id
It was positive i think.
My problem isn't miracles at all! O just do the beat down plan whith birchlore in morph, pendelhaven, arbor/quirion and i try to draw as much cards as possible!
The omnitell is the quimera! :-( i think
Congrats ElFinFas!
Blind, mauvaise foi => Bloody minded.
And I think too that you are a bit bloody minded on some issues Lemnear
About your list, can you seriously argue that:
a/ Sage is good partly because you can put it on play from S&T and remove Ruric from your list?
b/ Say that we should fix our bad MUS with a list featuring 4 NOs and only one hoof as a target, without the aforesaid demon?
c/ No birchlore is where we want to be? you posted a list without SB.
You cannot keep saying that everybody play so poorly if they get destroyed by terminus and say that fauna-VV is bad vs terminus. The trigger is a you may, so you always can put enough pressure on the board while keeping the VV in the yard, then put 1 or 2 VV on the battlefield after a terminus.
Fauna is good enough for forcing the miracle player to cast terminus even on a 1 to 1 basis, which is exactly where we want to be in the MU.
Turn 2 you reliably have fauna into play (4 fauna + 4 GSZ). OTP it means that we have active fauna when our opponent can cast S&T (his T3), and Ruric is the real deal here, Sage is bad. OTD it is a bit slow, but it is still a very good plan, omnitell player does not always win by turn 3, and we play some discard post SB.
For blade it is already a good MU, and miracle I answered above. Not to mention that if CB hit the play, Fauna can fetch your dear Sage.
By the way, I played versus a good miracle player Lille, and he desided the CB to blank decay/sages post SB, so maybe overloading with sage is not the best idea.
I reflexively grimaced. Sounds like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Matt Bevenour in real life
You can lose with S&T -> Ruric.
Playing a Iona SB to be fetched with a fauna when S&T is on the stack is better.
The only corner case where you would lose is:
1) your opponent puts Emmy
2) you cannot sacrifice 6 permanents other than Iona
3) you cannot kill your opponent within the next two attack phases
In 90 % case, Iona naming blue is game.
Elves Extreme, featuring 1 Painter's Servant and 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria.
a) Ruric is moved to the sideboard as you might guess. Honestly, having Ruric if you cut Birchlores is iffy (I come to that) and the chance to slam him game 1 against an unknown opponent IN TIME once you realize you are up against combo, is pretty low. Postboard aka if you KNOW you are up against combo, you can board him in and keep/mull into hands which support turn 2 NO to make Ruric a weapon. He's just totally random in game 1 and thus I opt to cut him from the MB
b) Yeah, NO are a tool for kill-option redundancy and an additional tutor still. You want to tell me that having Hoof or Ruric in hand is good against Miracles and Jitte? Get me right: I'm looking for stability against ALL these matchups.
c) There is something awkward in topdecking Birchlores, Fyndhorns or the like which are very low impact after turn 3. I wanted to reduce the hands and draws which leave us with a shitload of mana but nothing to do other than attacking with the doods while we're out of actual plays. I'm sure you know,what I'm talking about. I hate posting sideboards in general.
How long do you think you can keep your board alive to throw several vengevines into the yard? How do you think to get out of SDT/Counterbalance/Terminus if you have to throw two creatures right into counterbalance to get the vengevines back, which your opponent can simply plow on a 1-for-1 base or Terminus if you return 2+ Vines? Lets face it: Fauna is carddisadvantage if you want to setup Vines and we want to do the exact opposite against Miracles: Getting as much cardadvantage as possible to overcome Terminus. Visionaries do. Glimpse does. Sage does.
Which requires you to T1 mana acceleration, if you want to use GSZ and the plan is foiled anyways, if you start on the draw. Not even asking about you being required to identify your opponents deck in a turn or two.
If you want to argue with Fauna + Discard, wouldn't it be fair to give Sage the same favor and ask what your opponent is going to do with S&T + Omniscience, if you hold Sage in hand and discard his/her DTT aka instant-win turn 1/2?
IF you get it into play as a 2cmc spell against counterbalance, IF you have another creature in hand and IF it does not get removed while summing sick.
I don't see why he removed counterbalance and what he sided in instead. Should have been a cakewalk for you, no? Look at it from another angle: The MB Sages also reeuce the requirement for all those Decays in sideboard as your Decays are fetchable and 2/1
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To make long story short, here is the list we have created with a former well-known french "elfball" player.
There are no fancy "Natural Order" nor "Glimpse" in there.
The list is very skill intensive and requires to think "out of the box".
It is inspired from the very beginning/roots of Elfball at its origin.
Some will like it, some won't.
My friend won one of the very last trial on friday evening and his list did not get to be published on wizard website. (beating Miracle and Omni on his way)
Anyway, he didn't make day 2 because of a loss against Grixis Delver + Infect and an unfortunate draw against Miracle.
I guess he was lacking a bit of legacy competition since he didn't play legacy (and Magic, in general) for quite a longtime.
Nonetheless, I can assure you that this list can stand Miracle and Omni if played properly.
Cave Elves! by Cyrius & Ralf
1 Bayou
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Savannah
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Mirror Entity
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
1 Wirewood Hivemaster
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Heritage Druid
2 Vengevine
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Chord of Calling
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Sideboard
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Imperious Perfect
1 Dryad Militant
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Choke
4 Chalice of the Void
For any questions, I'll ask my friend to come and step by this thread.
Until then, I'm sure Blind will be happy to answer any questions you might have even if his tweaked version is still packing NO.
I'm pretty sure you'll understand why CB is not a problem in this deck...
Happy testing.
EDIT: name of the deck was missing, my bad.
I lol'd
Sorry to pull a Lemnear, but is skill intensive and "out of the box" code for bad?
I don't really understand what this list is doing other than trying to fuel a giant Chord and doing so poorly because it isn't playing Glimpse. Could you tell us what the list is trying to accomplish?
a giant chord ? I don't see any "giant" creature in this list.
Iona is purely for the Omni MU.
Either you go for the good old aggro route.
Either you insta kill with Mirror Entity.
Is this a "question code" for telling us you are bad at reading a deck list ?
I lol'd
Had to check the date, because for a second I thought it's 2012 again
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If you want to play XGGG spells, you might just as well go with Genesis Wave.
Good times. Unfortunately, long gone times.
Had to check the date, because for a second I thought it's 2012 againTwo genius. Good luck.If you want to play XGGG spells, you might just as well go with Genesis Wave.
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