That thing is horrible.Originally Posted by eostby
No immediate effect.
Greetings All!
Just here to report on another week's worth of Legacy. I went 3-1 this week beating Dredge (2-0), Grixis Delver (2-0), and Burning Reanimator (2-0), while losing to MUD (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang and -1 Daze for +1 True-Name Nemesis and +1 Spell Pierce. In the sideboard I also made the following change -1 Golgari Charm for +1 Garruk Relentless. I made these changes as it had felt like I had been playing against a lot of UWr Miracles and UWR Midrange decks. TNN and Pierce are moderate upgrades in these match ups. If you can resolve Garruk and protect him, he runs away with the game. Against UWR Midrange decks you do have to watch out for Lightning Bolts.
Round 1: Dredge - (2-0)
In both games one and two, I FoW his discard outlets to buy time to get and double DRS active with Goyf blockers. Both games were very tight. I was able to keep him off of dredging in game 2. The deck is seriously powerful and fairly resilient to DRS. I have been very happy with my three pieces of graveyard hate since we tend to have 1-2 Dredge players.
Round 2: MUD - (1-2)
Games one saw a turn three Karn. Game two a trio of Goyfs get him. Game three a turn 3 Wurmcoil ruins my day.
Round 3: Grixis Delver - (2-0)
This build didn't appear to be running DRS and the mana base appeared very shaky. A few well placed Stifles and Wastelands made for two games of near solitaire.
Round 4: Burning Reanimator - (2-0)
I wasn't completely sure what was going on in this match up. However, I had counter magic and DRS in game one. Game two I just had the full permission hand, which denied him access to combo though any route. Game two, I did get a free Vendilion Clique due to a Stronghold Gambit, which is the first time I have ever seen that card played. It was pretty funny. He cast the spell, I read it, Brainstormed, found Clique, allowed the spell to resolve and got the Clique for free as he was trying to sneak in a Griselbrand.
Overall I am still very happy with the deck. I think that with a bit of tuning and tight play it can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am a little sad that I did not get to test out the Garruk that I slated into the board this week. Oh well, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 3rd place this week. Anybody have and good plans for the MUD match up? I am thinking that maybe the Trygon Predator might need to come back to the board if this guy keeps showing up. All three games felt very one-sided. I am just wondering if anyone out there has some more experience with the match up. Thanks for reading!
Legacy
Grixis Delver
Vintage
Mono Mentor
Team Leovold
Weird thing with Stronghold Gambit. I've never seen it played either. As for MUD, I think that it's probably the most polarized matchup as far as the discard and Stifle builds of BUG go. With discard it's not hard to make their hands semi- to non -functional because they can't afford ro mulligan marginal but keepable hands. Liliana is also a huge beating against everything but Wurmcoil Engine. The Stifle build just doesn't have a ton of tools to fight back against expensive permanents, no fetchlands, and bigger creatures.
EDIT: I obviously support Trygon Predator. But you knew that already.
Alternatively, you can do as the Euros do and go to BUrG for Ancient Grudge out of the board.
Stronghold Gambit is one of my favorite cards, and I'm usually thrilled whenever I see it brought up, but this is an embarrassing usage. It has no business being in the 60 when its opposition is running something close to sixteen "weenies".
I play against 2 different Mud builds often, 1 of them daily. However, I don't play the Tapout version, I play a Stifle build without Liliana. I have also been playing a Reality Shift and an Echoing Truth in the main in place of Disfigures to much success. These both help the mud matchup and have been all around good in the current meta. Ugin must be countered, you will not win if he sticks.
I have found it a fairly even matchup, but its only even if you know how to play against it, know what build they play, and have either FoW or AD in your opening hand for the chalice or 3spere, especially if you lose the roll. There's a lot to take into account for this matchup, it has taken quite a bit of practice for me to become as proficient at beating it as I have. Playtest against it if you can, it's fairly necessary.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I completely agree. It probably would have been solid to bring/keep in against ANT, TES, Omnishow, and maybe Miracles. To play it against a Delver deck seems pretty loose to me. It was a very interesting deck. We talked about the build a good bit afterwards. I had read an article about it sometime way back, but never actually played against it. Having the chance to do so was pretty interesting. I wouldn't worry about it as a meta game contender. If you have counter magic and a piece or two of graveyard hate, you should be in fine shape.
Stifles can be a real blowout if they try to activate a Kuldotha Forgemaster but I think that is really the only juicy target. Burning a Stifle to buy a turn when facing down a Karn Liberated or a Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is fine but probably doesn't leave you in a very good position unless you have a large force. Maelstrom Pulse might be fine here as well. I think that I like Trygon Predator the best, as it has some added functionality in a variety of match ups. Going to BUrG just for Ancient Grudge is a transition that I don't think is necessary. I think the match up is winnable without this change. I think it will just take a bit of tuning and maybe playing a few more matches against it. Admittedly, I don't have the most experience in this match up.
I did my best to keep FoW and AD hands. I think part of my lack of success came down to him having good draws. I got to Thoughtseize him in two of the games and his hands were just outlandish. The idea of mainboarding Echoing Truth and Reality Shift is very interesting. I think both cards have their applications but in the maindeck they feel a bit weird to me. Thanks for the ideas.
Legacy
Vintage
I really want to one day Stifle a trigger from a Chalice on 2 to resolve a Tarmogoyf. I would probably run around the room with my hands up yelling like a madman.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
It would be pretty awesome! I would love to do it too!
Legacy
Vintage
Who is dumb enough to Chalice on 2 without a chalice on 1 against TA?
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
I imagine a Decay would be involved.
Last edited by btm10; 07-10-2015 at 05:18 PM.
No DTTs in the winning list at SCG Open Baltimore. Also none in the fourth place foiur colour list or the sixteenth place Thresh.
I never play tempo deck's, but I'm curious if maybe DTT isn't such a great card after all for Delver? I recall when TNN was new, and to a lesser extent TC, people were running those cards a little over zealously until the hype died down. Do any Derlver players think that's what we're seeing here, or is this just a fluke?
There are a lot of variables that go into whether you want to run Dig, and the things that make Dig good are the same things that make Young Pyromancer good - lots of cheap unconditional spells. I'd say that there are really two kinds of Delver decks now: there's the "traditional" builds like BUG and RUG that stick a threat and keep the opponent off balance while that threat wins the game, and then there's the aggro-Dig versions that want to play something closer to a counter-burn strategy that uses Dig to reload - these are the "fixed" versions of UR Delver from the Treasure Cruise era. This is a good example. That deck can play the traditional tempo game with Daze and Force, but its plan A is clearly just being aggressive while not being completely cold to removal and combo since it's only running ten pieces of disruption compared to the stock 12-16 + Wastelands present in RUG and BUG.
Greetings All!
Another week, Legacy local event. I went 3-1 again this week beating Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon (2-0), Elves (2-1), and earning an awkward round four bye (with a 2-1 record) due to players dropping, while losing to ANT (1-2). From last week's list I made the following changes: -1 Pithing Needle and -1 Flusterstorm for +1 Engineered Plague and +1 Trygon Predator in the sideboard. My thoughts being that I wanted a repeatable means by which to combat the artifacts out of MUD and I wanted a more permanent means to fight the Elves deck that I knew were in the room.
Round 1: Mono-Red Stompy/Blood Moon - (2-0)
Both games one and two he resolves Chalice of the Void on 1. In game two he has one on two as well. Fortunately for me in game one I have Delver into Goyf which kill him despite a resolved Blood Moon. In game two I have a couple dead Delvers and a few FoWs to keep pressure off of me while the True-Name Nemesis gets him dead.
Round 2: Elves - (2-1)
I keep a loose hand game one and get punished as he combos off and kills me on turn three. Games two and three I have tons of removal and basically kill every elf he plays. Game two I even got to resolve the Engineered Plague. I think if this match up contiunes to show up at locals, I may change my sideboard Nihil Spellbomb to a second Grafdigger's Cage.
Round 3: ANT - (1-2)
I mulligan both of my seven card hands in games one and two. I mulligan my six card hand in game two. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy really put a hurt on me in game one. He is able to kill me game one before my Insect finishes him. Game two I keep Trop, Delver, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Brainstorm. This hand seems pretty good but would have probably still lost if not for a good read on my part. My opponent took a really long time to Brainstorm and then didn't crack a fetch land. I used this info to inform my placement of a Surgical Extraction. The removal of the Dark Rituals didn't matter, but the shuffling his Past in Flames he had left on top of his deck did. Game three, I keep a seven card hand with not pressure, but lots of interaction. I take too long to apply pressure and he kills me.
Round 4: BYE - (2-0; I guess)
This one was really tough...
I maintain that with a bit of tuning and tight play this deck can beat basically everything in a given meta. I am am still a bit sad that in two weeks I have not gotten to test out Garruk. I did bring it in against the Mono-Red deck as a diversified CMC threat, but didn't find it or need to cast it. Again, maybe next time. Anyway, my 3-1 record was good for 4th place this week, some awkward stuff happened and there were 4, 9-pointers. I think the ANT match up is fine. I probably just got a bit unlucky with all of the mulligans. Maybe I can tweak the sideboard to get a Flusterstorm or two back in there. I have also been thinking about Arcane Laboratory. It is pretty great against Elves, Storm, and Omnishow; while making our counters more potent in basically every match up. So I may give it some consideration as well. Thanks for reading!
Legacy
Vintage
I've read this thread on and off for awhile now but this is my first time posting. I am a legacy player from Chicago and I placed 33rd at the SCG Legacy Premiere IQ (Attendance 171) yesterday playing Andrew Rayner's list from GP Lille: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1243198
My fetchlands were mixed slightly differently (but I still played 10) and I switched the nature's claim in the board for a Krosan Grip (I felt that having artifact and enchantment removal that failed to hit chalice on 1 or sensei's top could lead to more feel bad situations than I like).
While my result was not terribly good (they cash top 32 and post top 32 decklists, go figure), I believe I was the highest finishing BUG Delver player (yay?).
I beat mono-red Sneak Attack, Red and Taxes (not a typo), RUG Delver, MUD, and UR Delver.
I picked up an early loss to Harlan Firer on RUG Delver, then I lost my x-1 match to Storm which is very favorable and was promptly matched with Maverick, which is not.
If I was able to beat storm I would have been x-1 and I probably could have avoided the Maverick match which put me out of contention at x-3 and could have resulted in a higher BUG Delver finish (represent).
TL;DR Deck still felt great and ran pretty well, save for the occasional missing land drops against rug delver and maverick which occur when you have 20 lands in your deck and can't cantrip. Sorry I punted storm and didn't finish higher for TEAM AMERICA. Win your favorable matchups or get punished.
Thanks for all your hard work on the deck!
Hi Sourcers. I was fortunate enough to win the SCG IQ at Curio Cavern last weekend. They ran a fantastic event.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
9 Fetches
4 Wasteland
Side:
2 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Envelop
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Dismember
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Krosan Grip
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's Cage
R1: Dredge, loss 1-2 (lol)
R2: Elves, win 2-0
R3: ANT, win 2-1
R4: Elves, win 2-1
R5: ID
Quarters: Mono-Red Sneak Attack Stompy, win 2-1
Semis: Since the top four split and both players in the other semis match had invitations they dropped so we got a bye to finals, yay!
Finals: ANT, win 2-1
Deck felt great. Hymn to Tourach was the MVP. The main deck Toxic Deluge was tremendous against Elves. Tasigur also performed real well as the fifth Tarmogoyf and for card advantage in the grindy matchups.
Prior to this tournament I was testing Dig Through Time. I was dissatisfied with it in this style of Team America. I found that most if not all turns I want to tap out to generate tempo; Dig is clearly the best when cast at instant speed. I also found it was getting stranded in my hand a lot. Dig seems to fit better in a reactive deck where you run lots of cheap spells to fill the grave (e.g., Gitaxian Probe, Spell Pierce, Bolt). I can see it being viable in the Stifle version.
Cheers.
Hey all. I have the stuff to build this and the shardless version but I'm torn on which I should play. We only get one legacy tourny a month here so I can't get consistent practice. My meta is pretty all over the place now. 2-4 miricles, 2-3 omni, American delver, 4 color delver, 2-3 dnt 3-4 merfolk, esper deathblade bug delver, shardless, 2 jund and others I can't remember off the top.
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I kind of dig the list that recently finished 2nd in the SCG Open this past weekend. For reference: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=87958
My thoughts on the list:
It takes the basic overall configuration of BUG Delver, but drops the Delvers themselves and plays more midrange cards in Baleful Strix and the full play set of Dig Through Time. A miser's Toxic Deluge is your Hail Mary against creature swarms and/or something out of Decay range. Even against a field playing lots of DTT, Hymn is still a powerful card that can randomly win games.
Daze of course is still amazing, even in a 'Control' deck as illustrated here and in GP Lille's winning Miracle list. Daze enables these decks to make it into the mid/late game where their superior card advantage takes over. (I should also mention how Daze can 'combo' with Brainstorm when you don't need so many lands onboard and can shuffle a Sea away for a new grip.)
Delver is at its weakest in BUG in comparison to RUG, UR, and BUR/(g) configurations. I think without Lightning Bolt, Delver is actually a weak card since you are generally pulled into the later game without the added reach of Burn. Black offers enough disruptive power to deal with combo even without an extremely efficient early clock. So I can completely understand the justification for dropping the card entirely. Strix maintains the Blue count for FoW and is just a powerful control card in general.
I would personally be tempted to cut one copy of DTT for a Jace, Sylvan Library or other threat, but I suppose given how busted DTT is and how you want to *always* have consistent access to the card that it makes sense to just play 4 copies. Perhaps it's simply the best overall Game 1 method of card advantage. I also think this deck might benefit from somehow finding room for a MD Tasigur, but that's just me preferring to have plenty of threats.
Trinisphere is an interesting sideboard approach to handling the metagame. It slows down the velocity of other tempo decks (which may even have trouble reaching 3 lands against BUG), stops Omniscience from winning on the spot, and also hampers plenty of other combo strategies such as Storm.
Overall, excellent job with the list and good piloting by Devin Koepke. I think this may be the direction that Team America wants to take, at least until the next ban/restriction announcement. I often questioned the inclusion of Delver in BUG.
Delver is probably your best card to get you there against elves.
Sure, but Elves has always been a bit of a rough matchup, Delver or no. I think this deck configuration would try to win by landing a Goyf, then blow them out with a timely Toxic Deluge and swinging in, killing anything 1 by 1 with targeted removal. Maybe bring in Jace to keep up with card advantage or win via Fateseal lock. Perhaps it may even consider bringing in Trinisphere from the SB to slow them down (I'm unsure of this approach, admittedly having never played Trinisphere in Legacy before).
Delver as a flying clock is nice, sure, but it doesn't really address the primary concern of the matchup: Natural Order into Craterhoof alpha strike, and/or winning via card advantage via Glimpse and/or Visionary/Symbiote loops. Elves also tends to run Abrupt Decay and can stop your Delver from going all the way, hence the need for a definitive answer (i.e. Toxic Deluge). Either way, BUG still needs a fair amount of luck to come out on top in this matchup.
edit: also, Elves is just one deck in a huge format. I've already explained the rationale for dropping Delver in BUG, but this is especially true because of every other deck that's adapted their 75 to deal with Delver (i.e. pretty much every tier 1 and 2 deck).
I posted something similar in the Team America (Midrange/Control) thread and discussed this with Sturtzilla earlier today. I actually tried Dig in something like Phimus Pan's BUG Control list when Khans was first spoiled and while it was really good, the Dig Through Time decks were just too fast and too efficient to keep up. Recent testing has suggested that Liliana is still great against lots of random decks - including Grixis if you have other ways to contain Pyromancer - but not as good with Dig as she is with Visions. I'm embarrassed to say that despite testing something very similar and going down to a 1/2 Jace/Liliana split, I never cut them entirely or moved off of spot discard in favor of Hymn. I think (as I said in the other thread) that Koepke's list is likely a little too redundant for a list with 8 cantrips and 4 Digs - 4 Daze is probably a little much and a land can likely be shaved somewhere, just on inspection.
As for why people run Delver in BUG, you still get a lot of free wins off of Delver + Daze and don't lose that much in terms of going long.
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