All B/R update speculation.

[sjmcc13]

No. It's actually pretty shitty. No Cradles. Just basics.

The only way I see to use Earthcraft as a mana engine, is using Nettle Sentinel and possibly Wild Growth effects so that with every green spell cast, you untap the Sentinel, and tap it to Earthcraft, but this would require most of you enchantments be green to untap Sentinel, and cheap. but it might make for a decent engine with the enchantress cards.

[Crimhead]

Hah, this sounded intelligent for a second.

Then I remembered the most common decks in Vintage play one (or more) set of the following banned Legacy cards.
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Gush
4x Oath of Druids (usually accompanied by 2-4x Mana Drain)

The format defining decks in Vintage do not play singleton cards that are banned in Legacy. The most prominent Vintage decks are completely focused and built around using 4x the cards that are banned in Legacy.

Legacy's ban list doesn't follow rhyme or reason except for, as you put it, " using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play."

Some powerhouses are banned in Legacy but not restricted Vintage.

But type 1.5 didn't get its own list in order to promote a different style of game than type 1. It got its own list because the formats had their own unique meta-games, and you can't sensibly ban or not ban card based on its effect on an entirely different meta.

[Varal]

Hah, this sounded intelligent for a second.

Then I remembered the most common decks in Vintage play one (or more) set of the following banned Legacy cards.
4x Mishra's Workshop
4x Bazaar of Baghdad
4x Gush
4x Oath of Druids (usually accompanied by 2-4x Mana Drain)

The format defining decks in Vintage do not play singleton cards that are banned in Legacy. The most prominent Vintage decks are completely focused and built around using 4x the cards that are banned in Legacy.

Legacy's ban list doesn't follow rhyme or reason except for, as you put it, " using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play."

A different way to deal with problematic cards might make different cards problematic.

[btm10]

The only way I see to use Earthcraft as a mana engine, is using Nettle Sentinel and possibly Wild Growth effects so that with every green spell cast, you untap the Sentinel, and tap it to Earthcraft, but this would require most of you enchantments be green to untap Sentinel, and cheap. but it might make for a decent engine with the enchantress cards.

I've got Enchantress with 2x Earthcraft built right now, waiting for the day it's unbanned. It's GBw and abuses the hell out of Earthcraft + Theros Enchantment Creatures; if it got Herald of the Pantheon and Earthcraft at the same time, I'd be a very happy guy and would play the shit out of it.

[maharis]

At least in my area, a lot of the early Legacy players were disgruntled Vintage players who defected after the BS/Gush/Ponder/MS restrictions. As one local exasperatedly it - "they restricted blue"!

And yet somehow blue decks are still 70% of the Vintage metagame.

Legacy and Vintage are managed by pretty much identical philosophies. The only difference is that imbalanced cards are banned in one format but restricted in the other. Anything that's not imbalanced is fair game (except ante, dexetertity, and side game mechanics).

They're pretty much the same, except there's... 30?-plus cards that are completely outlawed in one of the formats and a handful that are allowed as four-ofs in one but restricted in another.

Modern arbitrarily excludes half of the games history and is managed by is very different philosophy including using the banned list to enforce a desired artificial pace (and style) of play.

Banning Oath of Druids, Flash, power and draw-7s is the definition of the bolded. We've already established that the banlist is about enforcing certain styles of play, now we're just haggling over the extent.

[sjmcc13]

And yet somehow blue decks are still 70% of the Vintage metagame.

Umm, define "blue decks".
Do you mean every deck that runs even a single blue card, or every deck where blue cards is a notable % of the deck, or decks where blue is the primary color of the deck.

Yes vintage will have a high blue count considering that Ancestral and Time Walk are just that broken, but if you insist on labeling each deck by a single color, as opposed to multicolored decks using, then I would not call any deck where blue is not the primary color a "blue deck".

Also over the last 2 months blue heavy decks would appear to be closer to 60% of the Vintage metagame. (MUD is at 29% and Dredge at 7% for a combined 36 % between them, and neither runs enough blue to be counted as a blue deck)

[barcode]

And yet somehow blue decks are still 70% of the Vintage metagame.

Why is this a problem? NYSE top 4 was 3 non-blue decks and one blue deck. Finals was Dredge over Shops.

[maharis]

Umm, define "blue decks".
Do you mean every deck that runs even a single blue card, or every deck where blue cards is a notable % of the deck, or decks where blue is the primary color of the deck.

Yes vintage will have a high blue count considering that Ancestral and Time Walk are just that broken, but if you insist on labeling each deck by a single color, as opposed to multicolored decks using, then I would not call any deck where blue is not the primary color a "blue deck".

Also over the last 2 months blue heavy decks would appear to be closer to 60% of the Vintage metagame. (MUD is at 29% and Dredge at 7% for a combined 36 % between them, and neither runs enough blue to be counted as a blue deck)

My bad. I looked at live tournaments only because I thought shops was significantly cheaper online and was overrepresented, but I see that it's actually pretty expensive. 60% is a better representation.

Blue decks in vintage are even more homogenous than in Legacy in my opinion. Even combo decks play Force/Misstep in addition to the cantrip suite. I guess Merfolk doesn't play brainstorm/ponder though so I must be completely off-base

Why is this a problem? NYSE top 4 was 3 non-blue decks and one blue deck. Finals was Dredge over Shops.

I don't think it's a problem. I was responding to the insinuation that restricting cantrips somehow neutered blue decks into oblivion. 60% of the format is still pretty nice. It's not like there's a single even slightly viable non-blue, non-dredge, non-shop deck.

[Dice_Box]

Shops is imo the strongest deck in Vintage right now. It's played because it's broken, not because it's cheep. Wasteland online is more expensive than Underground.

I have reread the last page and I am still trying to work out two things.
1) Why a man who said he was leaving is still here.
2) Why we are talking about a format that has nothing to do with Legacy.

So it's what, 24 hours to the update? No changes anyone?

[jrsthethird]

You know you're tired when you first write all your broken-up quotes with card tags instead. Whoops.

Biased due to owning a play set, but it feels like the ban was never fully justified to me, and the power creep weakens its strength.

Kneejerk reaction to the Vengevine decks. Even at that, DRS being around hurts that strategy a bit anyway. Plus, gotta give people a reason to use those Loyal Retainers they reprinted.

WTF are yo smoking, this card is NOT safe, it is a 1 card combo that goes off on turn 2, and can be built to be able to go off on turn 1... The card is not safe.

Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer are the same one-card combo at only 1 more mana, and you can play 8 of them. Also can go off on turn 1. Oops All Spells/Rogue Hermit isn't tearing up the format. Hermit Druid takes 1 less mana, but spread over 2 turns, or turn 1 if you can give it haste (then it's a 2 card combo). It wouldn't dominate, but it would see play.

Without the artifact mana of vintage I think this card is safe, and if twist becomes a problem Misdirection (and similar cards) already handle it nicely.

It's only better than Hymn to Tourach if you pump 4 mana into it; the single black mana makes it more splashable but then at 2 it's a Mind Knives, at 3 it's a marginally better Mind Rot. By turn 4 you're better off playing something that advances your board state than forcing your opponent into topdeck mode.

Might enable some sort of black discard Stax though, which would be neat.

Delver is a mistake, and it probably deserves a ban.

I think this makes the most sense, but at the same time, it's the weakest card here. I was so confused at the Wild Nacatl ban in Modern at first; but hey, wasn't Kird Ape banned at some point? This move isn't totally unprecedented.

[jrsthethird]

So it's what, 24 hours to the update? No changes anyone?

What's the exact time again?

[Dice_Box]

1100 est

[Nonex]

Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer are the same one-card combo at only 1 more mana, and you can play 8 of them. Also can go off on turn 1. Oops All Spells/Rogue Hermit isn't tearing up the format. Hermit Druid takes 1 less mana, but spread over 2 turns, or turn 1 if you can give it haste (then it's a 2 card combo). It wouldn't dominate, but it would see play.

Note than both Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer require 0 lands in your deck while Hermit Druid allows you a full nonbasic mana base. I think the difference is quite big.

[sjmcc13]

Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer are the same one-card combo at only 1 more mana, and you can play 8 of them. Also can go off on turn 1. Oops All Spells/Rogue Hermit isn't tearing up the format. Hermit Druid takes 1 less mana, but spread over 2 turns, or turn 1 if you can give it haste (then it's a 2 card combo). It wouldn't dominate, but it would see play.

No, they are not the same card. not by a long shot.

Spy and Informers require that you have exactly 0 lands in your deck, and with the requirements to generate the mana to go off at once you only have like 4 cards left in the 60 main to protect your combo other then the 2 therapies in case you need to discard a card.

Druid lets you run fetches, duals, etc and as a result takes up less space in your deck, and allows you to not be a glass cannon deck. This makes Druid more reliable, more stable, and as a result more problematic. It is not safe for the same reason Oath is not safe, it is a 1 card combo, that kills with a small investment in deck slots, allowing you to run a full counter/card advantage suit to support it.

Here is a quick list off the top of my head.

4 Hermit Druid
2 Worldly Tutor
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Narcomeba
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Bridge from Bellow
1 Dread Return
1 Sutured Ghoul
1 Lord of Extinction
1 Dragon's Breath
4 Lotus Petal
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Rainforest
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs

[Technics]

Druid is basically a 1 card Cephalid Breakfast combo (That costs 3 split over 2 turns in one color instead of two). Although I am not convinced this is the most broken thing you can be doing, I believe it would push the boundaries, and there are many more card that need to come off before Druid is up for freedom.

[Crimhead]

I have reread the last page and I am still trying to work out two things.
1) Why a man who said he was leaving is still here.
2) Why we are talking about a format that has nothing to do with Legacy.

1. I don't think he said he was leaving the site, rather that he would no longer bother with the topic of evaluating deck strengths via their ratio of top finishes to overall representation. The topics have been more interesting of late - unbans, the merit of logistic bans, and comparisons of banned list philosophies between formats.
2. Two formats! It started with Modern.

[ironclad8690]

What time does WotC update with the new announcement?

[ryscott85]

I've noticed it too, but I've noticed it's more of a resigned acceptance of Modern's existence. No Legacy GPs. Limited local events. Where you gonna get your Magic fix now? Modern has been pushed and promoted enough that it's gone from being the red headed stepchild to more of a long-term girlfriend turned frumpy where "you gotta do what you gotta do".

Nooo! I know I wouldn't stare at a frumpy girl in public when I have a gorgeous wife by my side. Does anyone want to sell their precious legacy staples to buy into a dulled down format? I know I don't. It seems to me like people play whatever format is closest to when they began playing (I started around fourth edition). There isn't anything wrong with that, but please, please don't make me play something just because you feel as though you can't make as much money off of it. To be honest I have no idea what sets are even legal in modern. Do you know why? Because in legacy you don't have a cap on when you can starting using cards from certain sets. Besides, Modern isn't exactly cheap. Has anyone looked at the price of Snapcaster Mage and Blood Moon lately??

On a side note. Jeff Hoogland, I hope that you shed a tear every time that you hear about Niklas Kronberger destroying people with Aggro Loam, since you feel as though you can't win in Legacy without brainstorm. Have fun playing formats with severely restricted card pools. "They hate us cause you ain't us"

---End bitter rant on people discussing Modern on a Legacy forum. Including me.---

[Dice_Box]

What time does WotC update with the new announcement?

Look up and live.

[Varal]

Shops is imo the strongest deck in Vintage right now. It's played because it's broken, not because it's cheep. Wasteland online is more expensive than Underground.

I have reread the last page and I am still trying to work out two things.
1) Why a man who said he was leaving is still here.
2) Why we are talking about a format that has nothing to do with Legacy.

So it's what, 24 hours to the update? No changes anyone?

Formats are 99% the same, they have some differences but you can use results from one to make educated guess on the other. An excellent card in one format usually tends to also be good in the other format. It's also possible that someone was subtly suggesting unbanning Mishra's Workshop and Bazaar of Baghdad to make Legacy less blue centric or to unban Mana Drain to make Legacy more blue centric.