[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Final Fortune]

Interesting idea to cut ETW and Chrome Mox, other than Meddling Mage on Burning Wish being an issue, and an issue that can easily be solved with a SB Pyroblast, it seems worth testing.

[Lemnear]

Interesting idea to cut ETW and Chrome Mox, other than Meddling Mage on Burning Wish being an issue, and an issue that can easily be solved with a SB Pyroblast, it seems worth testing.

I thought it's worth gambling against MB Meddling Mages (I have seen these in Deathblades as of late) and running w/o a mainboard wincon, in terms of fearing that Wishes get blocked/removed, was never an issue. For postboard games, you can pick your weapons between Pyroblast, Decay, Chain of Vapor, SB EtW(s) and whatever else floats your boat.

It plays a bit different, if you lack the 6 mana play with Infernal and have to be more careful about AN w/o mana float, which I tried to evade. This also means that you want to maintain Lotus Petals IN your Library rather than in hand or on the field pre-AN and I casted my Ponders and Brainstorms accordingly

[KaiSchafroth]

I'm sure there's a mix of rejoicing and complaining in other threads but/and while off-topic from deck developments and ideas...that B&R announcement was anti-climactic as hell.

[Lemnear]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

[Asthereal]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

I quite like this approach. But then again I am not a very good TES player.

[JamieW89]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

I also like the idea of 2-3 Empties vs Delver & Miracles and considered it for Lille in ANT (like I told you there), Kai came up with it on FB as well. However, in (limited) testing it didn't really seem stronger than 1 Empty though so I went with that (6-1'd Delver and 4-0'd Miracles anyways , with almost all postboard miracle games being won with tokens). If I had several in the board I'd definately like bringing 'em all in. Maybe you'd have to cut Wish postboard then though, adding in the Tendrils, PiF and 2 Empties (and Decays obv, and I don't like Swarm in the MU in general), becoming quasi-ANT with the Rites over CRits helping your empty plan but somewhat weakening the natural ToA/tutor chain/pif plans.

[TravisM]

During your game two against elves, it seems like some number of chrome mox may have been the difference. Would you consider the Rain of Filth(s) overall more useful than the occasional Ad nauseam brick or would having access to some number (in the board maybe?) be a worthwhile endeavor?

[Lemnear]

I also like the idea of 2-3 Empties vs Delver & Miracles and considered it for Lille in ANT (like I told you there), Kai came up with it on FB as well. However, in (limited) testing it didn't really seem stronger than 1 Empty though so I went with that (6-1'd Delver and 4-0'd Miracles anyways , with almost all postboard miracle games being won with tokens). If I had several in the board I'd definately like bringing 'em all in. Maybe you'd have to cut Wish postboard then though, adding in the Tendrils, PiF and 2 Empties (and Decays obv, and I don't like Swarm in the MU in general), becoming quasi-ANT with the Rites over CRits helping your empty plan but somewhat weakening the natural ToA/tutor chain/pif plans.

I really, really like that idea, Jamie. AN + 2 EtW + 1 PIF + 4 Decay postboard and still 4 Wishes for Tendrils/Dark Petiton as option sounds like a plan

During your game two against elves, it seems like some number of chrome mox may have been the difference. Would you consider the Rain of Filth(s) overall more useful than the occasional Ad nauseam brick or would having access to some number (in the board maybe?) be a worthwhile endeavor?

I had black and red mana float already and flipped 20+ cards ... how big is the chance to flip not even two pieces of acceleration (I was only able to get up to BBBR with the flipped Dark Ritual)? Less than 2%? Talking about "occasional" is a plain exaggeration here for this bad beat, given that it was the only Ad Nauseam cast that weekend, which didn't end up with my opponent dead. Moxen would have been worse than Rains most of the time that weekend and the Filths contributed to my flawless record againt Wasteland/Daze during all three days.

That being said, I will not hop back to Moxen just because of 1 bad beat, while Rains were plain awesome against Wasteland/Daze, which is traditionally a bad matchup otherwise.

[Final Fortune]

I really, really like that idea, Jamie. AN + 2 EtW + 1 PIF + 4 Decay postboard and still 4 Wishes for Tendrils/Dark Petiton as option sounds like a plan



I had black and red mana float already and flipped 20+ cards ... how big is the chance to flip not even two pieces of acceleration (I was only able to get up to BBBR with the flipped Dark Ritual)? Less than 2%? Talking about "occasional" is a plain exaggeration here for this bad beat, given that it was the only Ad Nauseam cast that weekend, which didn't end up with my opponent dead. Moxen would have been worse than Rains most of the time that weekend and the Filths contributed to my flawless record againt Wasteland/Daze during all three days.

That being said, I will not hop back to Moxen just because of 1 bad beat, while Rains were plain awesome against Wasteland/Daze, which is traditionally a bad matchup otherwise.

Are you happy with 2 Rain of Filth? I'm running a 1/1 split of Chrome Mox and Rain of Filth just because drawing 2 of either is terrible, and in game I rarely get a Rain of Filth for more than 3 vs Wasteland.dec

Do you have any numbers on how much cutting Chrome Mox reduces your chances of T1 Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens? Maybe it's psychological, but I seem to be summoning significantly less Goblins.

[Lemnear]

Are you happy with 2 Rain of Filth? I'm running a 1/1 split of Chrome Mox and Rain of Filth just because drawing 2 of either is terrible, and in game I rarely get a Rain of Filth for more than 3 vs Wasteland.dec

Do you have any numbers on how much cutting Chrome Mox reduces your chances of T1 Ad Nauseam or Empty the Warrens? Maybe it's psychological, but I seem to be summoning significantly less Goblins.

Well, the first Mox you draw is terrible most of the time unlike the first Rain, if you play that manabase. Drawing two isn't good, but thats also the case with Moxen or Wishes, if you know what I mean. What you however want, is seeing a Rain per game either pre- or post-AN to accelerate your mana and two has been fine in testing to match the criteria, especially as you flip more cards with AN overall anyways.

What I found very successful vs. Wasteland/Daze is just sitting and ensuring landdrops (preferable Fetchlands). You can't complain about Rain acting as a Dark Ritual here, if Mox would only have delivered +1 at best and eats another hand card in the process.

Most T1 combos bank on having at least 4 pieces of +1/+2/+3 acceleration/sources (Land/Petal/Mox/Rite/Ritual/LED) anyways and the impact of Chrome Mox (not even taking color requirements into consideration) is pretty marginal among them if you take the possible combinations of the acceleration into account which actually create 6+ mana with 7 starting cards. I can't calculate it while at work, but with a rough estimation I'd suspect you lose ~1,5-2,5% Turn 1 combos compared to the builds with 3 Moxen and EtW. In other words, the chance to explode T1 into AN or EtW drops from ~12% to ~9,5%, which however as no meaningfulness in terms of the question of if the opponent can interact or if Goblins are effective, which however was more important for my descision than the sheer drop of percentage. I also want to set this drop for T1 combos into relation with the significant improved percentage to combo turn 2 and turn 3 as well as to the hard to calculate impact the setup has against anything that can actually interact with your T1 combo or disrupts your mana.

Given the existing average number of decks in a tournament, which require you to explode T1 compared to the rest of the field, I was and am still fine with the reduced chance to combo T1, but partly drastic improvements for my turns 2/3/4/etc.

So it's almost satirical, that I was eliminated from the GP mainevent, because I wasn't able to combo Turn 1 on the draw against Miracles/Elves/MUD. I can't blame the deck for lost dicerolls and nutty hands of my opponents though in these examples, especially after basically destroying anything else.


P.S. My record against Miracles the whole weekend was far from acceptable, so I will shift the paradigm of "Decays + Xantids" towards "threat overload" like Jamie and Rodrigo suggested.

[Pelikanudo]

After the editing of the report, I thought of why I did not bring in my 2 EtWs instead of the Xantids against Miracles to put up some natural, not overcommitting pressure? Is the idea totally off to drop like 6 goblins and just see if your opponent can answer those?

I'm still trying to beat consistently miracles.... the Deck I try to fight is the Legend Miracles.

I'm not sure about the EtW main if to left it or not... but somehow sometimes seems good and sometimes is bad - this depends on how the Miracles player sides... in my experience 1st games much of them are won via EtW expecting to just not to topdeck Terminus.... as said sometimes it is ok and sometimes not...
I believe that the key is to not to invest too much resources on EtW - depending on the game state also.

I've been fairly happy with my side of 4A.D. and 2 Xantids vs them - now I will free up 1 slot maybe I put in the 3rd Xantid OR the Green Silence card just to see how this Works...
On thing I like from Xantid is that if you see removal from Opp. part, you - at worst - can handle Xantid until you draw C.Therapy - if you dont have it, to just Double Therapy the Opp.
The other thing I like is that if you play it on first turns, it is likely the Opp. can not have answers so that the Opp. needs to FoWs it.

As said, I'm still looking for some new tech vs this Miracles.

However I have to say that:
- for me 4 A.D. is a must vs this archetype
- Teste P. Nedle, Extirpate and Pyroblasts - P.Nedle and Extirpate just don't worth it and Pyro is not that great.
I need t test maybe Krosan at some point...

Apart regarding R.Filth and 0 C.Moxen and 0 EtW:
IMHO: I just cannot agree on these changes - now even we are going to explode A.N even more with that Super New card in Side - Dark Petition.

[Dr_D]

So I've been playing DDFT for years and just switched to TES because it generally feels stronger. Assuming I'm running the 75 Bryant just posted on the website, how would I want to board vs. Omni and Miracles? I know for Omni I want the red blasts, and for miracles I want carpets, blasts, and decays, but I'm too new to know what I should take out. Any help would be fantastic.

[KaiSchafroth]

So I've been playing DDFT for years and just switched to TES because it generally feels stronger. Assuming I'm running the 75 Bryant just posted on the website, how would I want to board vs. Omni and Miracles? I know for Omni I want the red blasts, and for miracles I want carpets, blasts, and decays, but I'm too new to know what I should take out. Any help would be fantastic.

If you're following the straight 75 and need a generic SB guide it's on the website under Additional Information - Matchup Analysis and there's a bit of detail on why the selected cards (in/out) in specific. That being said you'll probably find personal preferences in individual games/opponents which might require changes/not just going with the default sb

[Bryant Cook]

Well, the first Mox you draw is terrible most of the time unlike the first Rain, if you play that manabase. Drawing two isn't good, but thats also the case with Moxen or Wishes, if you know what I mean. What you however want, is seeing a Rain per game either pre- or post-AN to accelerate your mana and two has been fine in testing to match the criteria, especially as you flip more cards with AN overall anyways.

I don't really agree with much that has been said in this thread over the last few days. Peter and I have been moving in two pretty different directions with the deck, we don't agree on the strengths/weaknesses at this point. I believe he's making his list into a weaker version of ANT as he's slowed down considerably while having a worse manabase than ANT (no basics) and has to support more colors.

The reason I quoted the section above is the line about multiple wishes being bad. This is a side effect of you cutting everything from the sideboard other than 4 cards you could possibly retrieve, this is a cause of your own deck building. Not leaving yourself with Thoughtseize to act as disruption can lead to this.

[Dr_D]

If you're following the straight 75 and need a generic SB guide it's on the website under Additional Information - Matchup Analysis and there's a bit of detail on why the selected cards (in/out) in specific. That being said you'll probably find personal preferences in individual games/opponents which might require changes/not just going with the default sb

Ah thanks, I didn't realize that section had been updated too, sorry about that.

[Lemnear]

I'm still trying to beat consistently miracles.... the Deck I try to fight is the Legend Miracles.

I'm not sure about the EtW main if to left it or not... but somehow sometimes seems good and sometimes is bad - this depends on how the Miracles player sides... in my experience 1st games much of them are won via EtW expecting to just not to topdeck Terminus.... as said sometimes it is ok and sometimes not...
I believe that the key is to not to invest too much resources on EtW - depending on the game state also.

I agree

I've been fairly happy with my side of 4A.D. and 2 Xantids vs them - now I will free up 1 slot maybe I put in the 3rd Xantid OR the Green Silence card just to see how this Works...
On thing I like from Xantid is that if you see removal from Opp. part, you - at worst - can handle Xantid until you draw C.Therapy - if you dont have it, to just Double Therapy the Opp.
The other thing I like is that if you play it on first turns, it is likely the Opp. can not have answers so that the Opp. needs to FoWs it.

And it didn't work out in practice. It's not that Therapy or Xantid handle topdecked Counterbalances, which was exactly my Problem at some point. Being dead on board with two Xantids in play was about the worst. FoW/Plow wasn't even required to negate my Xantids, which left a bad taste in my mouth.

As said, I'm still looking for some new tech vs this Miracles.

However I have to say that:
- for me 4 A.D. is a must vs this archetype
- Teste P. Nedle, Extirpate and Pyroblasts - P.Nedle and Extirpate just don't worth it and Pyro is not that great.
I need t test maybe Krosan at some point...

If 3cc wasn't so damn painful, I would have picked then up before. Maybe I have to swallow this pill.

Apart regarding R.Filth and 0 C.Moxen and 0 EtW:
IMHO: I just cannot agree on these changes - now even we are going to explode A.N even more with that Super New card in Side - Dark Petition.

I don't get this. Show me just two examples where chrome Mox in your opening grip really improves your ability to get to 9+ mana turn 1.

I don't really agree with much that has been said in this thread over the last few days. Peter and I have been moving in two pretty different directions with the deck, we don't agree on the strengths/weaknesses at this point. I believe he's making his list into a weaker version of ANT as he's slowed down considerably while having a worse manabase than ANT (no basics) and has to support more colors.

The reason I quoted the section above is the line about multiple wishes being bad. This is a side effect of you cutting everything from the sideboard other than 4 cards you could possibly retrieve, this is a cause of your own deck building. Not leaving yourself with Thoughtseize to act as disruption can lead to this.

And it's totally fine to work in different directions and disagree at certain points. Personally, I don't think cutting Moxen for Cabal Rituals is a move to make the deck "faster" either. I'm convinced we both slowed down in the end and I dislike calling my approach "weaker Version of ANT" if you added Cabal Rituals to improve the PIF playline while I chopped EtW to improve Ad Nauseam. I like working in different directions to see how we can improve rather than agreeing on everything and change/test nothing :)

The part about multiple Wishes was just to Highlight that draws which do not immediately help do happen and that these do not keep us from running these cards. So far I have not stumbled over my limited selection. I have always found a way

[kkkant]

I know this question will haunt me forever, but has anyone ever tried pyromancer ascension as a SB option?

I've tried it this week and work out awesomely vs miracles, chalice.decks and grindy matchups.
Consider that people dont tend to bring in GY hate against us (at least people that can note the difference between ANT and TES) and we play 8 playsets (BS Ponder GP IF BW DR RoF CT),making it really easy to activate.
The games i played it, i managed to get it online a couple of turn after and then it simply went out of hands.

[Bryant Cook]

And it's totally fine to work in different directions and disagree at certain points. Personally, I don't think cutting Moxen for Cabal Rituals is a move to make the deck "faster" either. I'm convinced we both slowed down in the end and I dislike calling my approach "weaker Version of ANT" if you added Cabal Rituals to improve the PIF playline while I chopped EtW to improve Ad Nauseam. I like working in different directions to see how we can improve rather than agreeing on everything and change/test nothing :)

The part about multiple Wishes was just to Highlight that draws which do not immediately help do happen and that these do not keep us from running these cards. So far I have not stumbled over my limited selection. I have always found a way

I'm still playing a Mox so that my Ad Nauseams are a little more impressive, where you opt for a 14th land. It's not Rain of Filth vs Chrome Mox, it's Chrome Mox against a second Bayou - it's a little foolish to argue otherwise as we both added in two additional rituals. Those are what's in competition. Cabal Ritual is much better at supporting: PIF, Dark Petition and floating mana into Ad Nauseam than Rain of Filth. I believe my list is faster due to the main deck four mana line that I'm not giving up on my Infernal Tutors (Empty the Warrens) along with the Additional Mox and Cabal Ritual being worthwhile on turns 1+2 unlike Rain. You lost more than one match at the GP from your notes because of this.

Less targets for Wish certainly does make it worse. But it's not about "finding a way", it's about having the right cards in the right situations.

[Pelikanudo]

I don't get this. Show me just two examples where chrome Mox in your opening grip really improves your ability to get to 9+ mana turn 1.

When talking about C.Mox and exploding A.N I was refering mainly to the ability to just win on the spot once you start revealing with A.N. we need to agree both that 3 C.Moxen are better after A.N. than having 0.

Related to 2 Examples you ask me:
a)LED, LED, LED, RoF, RoF., B.W., C.M
b)LED, LED, LED, RoF, B.W., B.W., C.M
Joke.


Anyway, I just believe we are taking 2 Diff. directions. I still even play Gemstones! I cannot change my mind so much by the moment!!! understand me. I think we could interchange opinions about this which will not let on any change on mind by any part... Regarding your list the unique change I'd do is trying to set up any swamp in the base.

on the hand we can talk about Miracles and how to win this match up... I am very open to whatever related to this...
as said, by the moment 4 A.D. and Xantids is ok.

- I was evaluating in Doomsday + Emrakul +Shelldok isle plan - this was effective vs Miracles long time ago when played DD....
- maybe tons of Pyros plus 4 Vexing Shuser could help???? this is even good vs Omni...

Snif....

EDIT: Wow, I'm quite impressed how the Bryant Base has changed so much...
is this a change due to Dark petition?
I don't think this new Side card should change so much the face of TES...
Sure 1 Chrome Mox????

the TNT build would be much more stronger in my opinion...

[Final Fortune]

I haven't been too impressed with Rain of Filth after testing the no ETW/Mox version, a single Wasteland takes away too much value from your last ditch ritual compared to Cabal Ritual just naturally gaining value thru' Threshold without ever risking your manabase. Bayou is also very meh in your starting hand, I can't imagine MDing 2 being very consistent.