Hi Niklas,
I've not played your deck yet but I have the cards so I will be taking it for a spin in my local Legacy events. I have been playing LeJay's Sylvan Plug list but I would like to switch it up a bit.
Can I ask when you are bringing in Thoughtseize? When I have been drawing up potential sideboarding plans I seem to be adding T'seize a little more than I think I should, especially given that I really want T1 Chalice on 1. Do you only bring them in in very specific situations? Do I want them against ANT like I do when I am playing Elves? Miracles on the play to nab a Top but not on the Draw? Generally against Combo i.e. Know and Tell, Elves? Those are all decks that I want Chalice for so it seems like a pretty major nonbo.
Should I instead be thinking about them as something good to bring in whenever I am taking Chalice out?
Another one jumped to the bus :)Originally Posted by QBChaz
Usually I bring Thoughtseize against all matchups where chalice goes out(D&T, Goblins, Merfolk, MUD.....) and against combo(Omni, ANT, Reanimator....)
Depending on what you bring in/out, you can also board them in against miracles or stone blade, although I am not a massive fun on doing that, I most certainly did a few times.
The thing with chalice + thoughtseize is that when you stick a chalice in the game, the extra dead card should not impact the game in a very disadvantage way, since you are already locking the opponent.
My 2 cents anyway.
Two cents well spent.
It's worth noting that Thoughtseize should only really be treated as a stopgap measure. It's not the end goal. You run it because X deck does something that you might not be fast enough or well equipped enough to deal with or because you actually have nothing else.
In other news, how does everyone feel about Night of Souls Betrayal? I've been giving it casual thought for a while now (elves, d&t, etc), but I'm thinking about it a lot more now that Grixis is an actual deck now. Young Pyromancer is no problem. True-Name Nemesis is no problem. But with both of them threatening on the same board, it can get a little bit dicey as the only real out you have in more common scenarios are a handful of sweepers that are vulnerable to counters and that you may or may not have already used. I think that's where Niklas was going with The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, but I don't own a Tabernacle, sooo although Night of Souls Betrayal is expensive in the other sense, 4cc isn't unrealistic and, once landed, it actually ends the game. No Delver. No True-Name Nemesis. No Young Pyromancer. No Snapcaster Mage. No Vendilion Clique. No Abrupt Decay if they splashed.
I toyed with the card in the Cruise era, it was pretty good but I brlirv running a couple of charms+deluge might be better since it covers more basis(althoug it is not a permanent solution)
I like this. Engineered Plague getting Decay-ed is no fun. I might get my hands on one of these and try it in place of Deluge.
Going to a tournament tomorrow with this beauty:
1x Badlands
2x Barren Moor
2x Bayou
1x Dryad Arbor
1x Forest
3x Grove of the Burnwillows
1x Karakas
1x Maze of Ith
1x Savannah
1x Scrubland
1x Taiga
1x Tranquil Thicket
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
2x Windswept Heath
4x Dark Confidant
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Gaddock Teeg
4x Knight of the Reliquary
1x Scavenging Ooze
3x Abrupt Decay
3x Punishing Fire
2x Green Sun's Zenith
2x Life from the Loam
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Mox Diamond
2x Sylvan Library
3x Liliana of the Veil
SIDEBOARD:
1x Choke
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Golgari Charm
2x Leyline of the Void
1x Containment Priest
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Slaughter Games
1x Sulfur Elemental
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thoughtseize
Wanted to test a 4Color no Red version but had not time to test it this week, so we are back with big beast.
A report on Sunday will follow :)
Badlands. Badlands.
(good luck)
Hi,
I Top-8d today in LCL July (54 players) with a very similar list to the last posted by Pilhas (congrats on your results with the deck btw). The only changes were the following:
Main
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Savannah
+1 Scrubland
+1 The Tabernacle at Prendell Vale
Side
-1 Maelstrom Pulse
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Reclamation Sage
The deck punished me for not sleeving 1 Savannah and I still don't understand why I did this. There was a situation when I had Knight of the Reliquary in hand but couldn't cast it as my lands were 2 Scrublands and Wasteland, can't rememeber which round. The other change responded to my expectation for a larger field of Pyromancer decks given the results in the last LCL, but I turned out to be wrong as the meta shifted to a larger proportion of Team America decks. Anyway I was happy enough with Tabernacle even against TA. And I discovered Tabernacle+Choke is so sexy against that deck.
I am glad I decided to sleeve Reclamation Siege and Engineered Explosives, both helped a lot against Miracles and EE in table prevented an EOT rain of angels, something Maelstrom Pulse couldn't have accomplished.
My pairings were:
1. Reanimator 2-0.
2. Team America 2-0.
3. UWR Control 2-0.
4. Miracles 2-1.
5. Team America 1-2.
6. Team America ID
Top 8 Grixis Delver (Pyromancer and TNN) 0-2
The deck performed very well except for the Top8 game, where in G1 I failed to draw Reliquary and removal while a TNN and Clique beat me. In G2 I kept a lousy hand with no black mana and never got to cast Thoughtseize nor Liliana. I felt the field was underprepared against AggroLoam, only saw hate in round 5 with Leyline of the Void in both G2 and 3 and several players seemed unexperienced with the deck as well, specially at fetching way to greedy at occasions. Slaughter Games shined at removing Show and Tells from Reanimator and Entreat the Angels from Miracles, although sometimes is slow.
I sided both against Miracles and was happy overall. I had 6 cards to deal with Counterbalance and could manage to resolve them. In G3 actually demolished him as I Thoughsteized in T3, he spent his last mana to activate Top, sent away Council's Judgment and resolved Chalice @1 with Swords, Ponder and Land in hand. In other rounds, I got them stucked in hand thanks to Chalice and ended up being Liliana's food.
Nothing ever goes to waste in a BGx deck.
The report everyone has been waiting for(NOT).
Event was in ferrol, Spain with 108 players. We went there the day before since the trip was ~3.5 hours.
Small report of the trip:
Left Portugal at 8pm after work, 2cars with 9 people total.
Stop in Valença, Portugal to eat a beautiful (baby?)goat(not sure of the translation.
Went on til 20 km of Ferrol(1-2 am) when my friends car broke down! Call the insurance to tow the car and they follow by taxi. Get to the hotel at 4am.
Things start well early as you see.
Wake up at 8am and go to the tournament.
From my list in last post I droped a Canonist for a Sage
R1: Affinity
Game 1 he vomits his hand on the table, I promptly kill everything with PFire and set down a couple of Confidants + a Chalice@0
after I take control of the game I see he is playing Modern Affinity so everything costs 1 :/ He ended with 2 Etched champions on the table but Maze of Ith and a Liliana are no match for them. Attack with a couple of Knights and GG.
Cant remember what happens game 2, but was an easy match overall.
M(1-0)G(2-0)
R2: Saito's Grixis Delver
I was curious about the matchup, since I never tested it, but as it turns out it is just another delver variant.
Game 1 I drop an early chalice and never let his pyromancers take over, the only dame I took this game was from 2 fetches and Library.
Game 2 I manage to lock him the entire game until he drops a Nemesis which I kill with a liliana that I kept in hand almost all game.
My sb was -1 arbor -1 Teeg -2 GSZ
+2 Charms +1 thalia +1 pulse.
I am really not sure about this side, I kept 3 lilis in which doesn't seem right.
M(2-0)G(4-0)
R3: Omnitell
I know what he is in, he is (probably) the best player in the club I am used to go in Spain.
Game 1 I drop a T1 chalice and a bit after I play a GSZ@2 he tanks for a while and then says yes. I fetch Teeg and he makes a nervous face, it seems like he forgot about him. After a while I kill him with a couple of bears.
Game 2 I keep a Mox, Chalice, TS, 3 Land + something. TS+Chalice @ T2(not sure if it is the right play). I play a nearly perfect game with a bear(thalia or confidant) on board and with a Charm+Sage on hand. And then I draw the canonist, LET THE DUMB MOVES BEGIN, I look at my 3 hate pieces on hand, my clock on the table(bear+arbor) and proceed to try to cast Canonist. of course he counters it, and after killing my bear, proceeds to s&t the omni I go sage, he goes for Cunning->Trickbind(Fow my charm) and win from there.
Game 3 kept a chalice+ mox+ games+ something hand. Drop the cahlice and missed my t3 land but draw a GSZ. I GSZ for 0 and get it countered by my own chalice -.-. After a bit I draw a land and games the S&T away. he only got the Cunning + Breach plan left with 2 wish on Grave. He finnaly clears my board and with me at 3 life we go to turns. I drop a mox and thoughtseize him goin to 1(Giving him the out of Sudden Shock also) to see a hand of 3 Digs, 2 FoWs and a Wish. I take the Wish(going around the bolt that he does not have) and in t3 of turns he found the Breach + emrakul and kills me.
Had the game, missplayed in G2, proceed to kick my self and go on.
My sb was -3 decay -3 PFire -2 Lib -1 Maze -2 Loam
Bring everything except for the Leylines, Priest and Sulfur elemental.(In hindsight maybe priest is also a possibility)
M(2-1)G(5-2)
R4: Burn
My oponent is not he best and seems quite nervous.
Game 1 I drop an early Knight + several wastelands and kill him from there.
Game 2 I do the same.
My sb was -1 Teeg -2 Loam -2 Confidant.
+2 Charms +1 thalia +1 pulse +1 canonist.
I am really not sure about this side, I kept 3 lilis in which doesn't seem right.
M(3-1)G(7-2)
R5: WG Cloupost
Game 1 I drop a t1 chalice, he drops a winswept heath, I drop a Knight and he concedes.
Game 2 I miss sideboard(putted him on maverick) and proceed to try to race a late game against cluodpost. Did not end well agains a Ulamog + Emrakul.
Game 3 He goes for a T1 Needle on wasteland + T2 RiP. I bring him to 2 until he finds a Titan, which brings him to 10 and the 18.
Can't remember my sideboard, but I know I did not bring the charms nor the Sage and cut a decay. Dumb me can be real dumb.
M(3-2)G(8-4) Out of top8 :(
R6: Omnitell(Budget?)
Game 1 He mulls to 5 and combos at t4. and did not find more than 1 cant trip in the following 3 turns.
Game 2 I Games him t3/4 and he board out his 2nd plan(Dream halls)
SB(see g3)
M(4-2)G(10-4)
R7: Deathblade(No green but with Shamans)
Game 1 We trade a couple of resources and he kills me with a nemesis.
Game 2 Wastelands are fun.
Game 3 Wastelands are really fun.
SB +2 TS +1 Sage +1 Pulse +1 Choke +2 Charms.
-1 Ooze -1 Knight -something
M(5-2)G(10-5)
Lost to myself, Gotta learn some day.
The Portuguese bubble boys strike again with 1 in 9th and 1 in 17th(me).
Proceed to arrive at portugal at midnight, wake up at 10am to go get the other guys(car is dead) at Vigo, Spain.
Get home write report and smoke + beer the rest of the day(I hope).
Feel free to kick myself for the miss sideboards that are probably around.
Comments are always welcome.
~Pilhas
Last edited by Pilhas; 07-20-2015 at 10:40 AM.
Is Golgari Charm really that much better than Zealous Persecution?
I am not so sure the destroy enchantment is so important...
Chalice on 1
It is being able to destroy an enchantment on an effect that is also very useful. Versatility is very powerful.
All 3 modes are useful.
-1/-1 + regenerate against storm
-1/-1 and destroy ench against omni/blade
against d&t you can use all modes
etc...
It's not so much that being able to destroy enchantments is "important", though it certainly helps. It's just that the other half of Zealous Persecution does absolutely nothing for the deck while the other two thirds of Golgari Charm do stuff. There's no great horde of weenies that need to come bloodrushing through or need to be protected from opposing sweepers. There's Knight of the Reliquary. And she don't give a fuck. One could point out that it doesn't neg our own creatures, but, again, Knight of the Reliquary don't give a fuck. The only creature that might actually care is Dark Confidant, but he already lives to die. It's generally profitable to ride out the Confidant until they manage to kill him, and then smack them upside the head with a Golgari Charm. Alternatively, if Dark Confidant just won't die in a timely enough fashion to avoid you having to get it mixed up with a Golgari Charm, you've probably already gotten several draws and several swings off of him and can usually justify the loss of value.
That being said, as stated before, being able to kill enchantments is extraordinarily helpful, and being able to regen creatures is always neat. Make no mistake, it is treated as a sweeper first and foremost. Nobody runs Golgari Charm thinking "now my Serene Offering can hit creatures!". But being able to peg Rest in Peace is awesome, and having two more cards to shore up an otherwise miserable match-up against OmniShow is also definitely handy.
BG is also a bit easier on mana than BW, if everything above wasn't enough to convince you.
It isn't really enough but not because of Persecution, but because o don't see the use of Golgari Charm. I would much rather play Toxic Deluges instead and I see that they are again less versatile, but help you more at times against all kinds of random decks like Merfolk or any Tarmogoyf deck.
Chalice on 1
For reference, I run 2*Golgari Charm and 1*Toxic Deluge.
As good as Toxic Deluge is and as much as it's one of my favorite cards to come out in recent years, they both just have very different effects. Toxic Deluge is one of my most frequently brought in cards against fair decks. Especially since none of your creatures last very long unless it's an oversized Knight of the Reliquary, Toxic Deluge is just 3cc to value town. However, a 2cc instant has a lot more going for it against the relevant decks in the format. Against the decks your sideboard slots are aimed at. When looking at cost to effect, a 3cc sorcery just doesn't beat out the tight package of Golgari Charm. Golgari Charm will always resolve more frequently, and that is a massive consideration, and what makes it better than Toxic Deluge against Death and Taxes and against Elves and against Grixis.
I understand what you're saying about versatility but if you feel you need Toxic D, pack 2 in the board. Cut something else out. If you need to wipe the table, Toxic is probably the best thing outside of Terminus. My question would be whether it's worth it to run 2 KGrip, 2 Toxic instead of splitting 3 slots between golgari and toxic. Golgari @ 2cc is a quality card the format neglects exists. But I can't help looking at K-grip's split second as a huge boon (especially with Miracles and Omni-Show are top decks).
Apples to oranges in all cases. Toxic Deluge is a great reset button and value card. You draw it, look at the board, and BAM. Back to square one. But it doesn't beat out an established D&T board. It doesn't skirt around a Dig Through Time for the touchdown on Pyromancer and True-Name. And that's what I need and want out of the Golgari Charm slot. Hell if I care about dumb beaters like Delver or Tarmogoyf.
Golgari Charm does what I need it to do at a very reasonable rate of resolution, and that's what lets it occupy those sideboard slots. That it's versatile is only an added bonus that sets it above the other options. If I couldn't run Golgari Charm, I would probably give Zealous Persecution some serious consideration. And if I couldn't run Zealous Persecution, I'd then look towards Marsh Casualties. But Toxic Deluge doesn't fit into that discussion. It's a good card in its own right, but it's no more similar to those than Maelstrom Pulse is to Abrupt Decay.
Krosan Grip is sweet sideboard tech, and I had an extensive discussion with myself about it earlier in the thread, but it's expensive and it doesn't do enough. Given that the deck doesn't really need help against Miracles, OmniShow is its only real use, but keeping three mana open at all times isn't really feasible. I've run Krosan Grip before, and it was one of the most quickly cut cards I've ever tried. As specific hate against OmniShow, there are better options, and as general hate against artifacts and enchantments it falls short of contemporaries like Wear//Tear and Reclamation Sage.
Since we are talking about the board, lets discuss thoughtseize.
Thoughtseize doesn't synergize well with chalice. Combo has started to slow down to combat all of the blue: Belcher is gone, Storm has started to cut Ad Nauseum, and Omni-Tell the premier combo deck. So, if you probably aren't going to die turn 1 or 2, should we be playing a higher impact card that does a better job of fighting Omni?
Would 2/2 split of thalia/cantonist be more effective?
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