I don't think 2 Jitte is random in a build packing 15 threats (3 Jotun Grunt or Rotting Giant for more consistency) ala. what Anarky runs. Angel may not be the best solution. But this deck does indeed need more fat threats that stick around, Wretch isn't fat and Grunt doesn't stick around. I would of course run 3-4 Grunt in the side versus thres, but I really think that this deck needs a more stable threat.
I don't think 1 or even 2 Tomb of Urami hurts that much.
And we already know what this deck is losing to... any deck that packs bigger threats than 2/2s ala. Angel Stompy, Fairie Stompy, Zilla Stompy etc.
Or Madness, or Red Death, or Stompy, or basically any resolved threat. This deck has really failed to do anything. I've seen it played in reasonable numbers and it hasn't made a recent Top8 in the US since like April of this year and that was only 1 spot. This decks lack of ability to beat creature-based decks is a virtual death knell for it. Would you run this deck in a real tournament knowing that you can't beat over 30% of the field?Originally Posted by Clark Kant
Honestly, I think this deck lost something when it lost Gerrard's Verdicts-hymns 5 and 6 were just that good IMHO. Not that it would make any matchups better besides combo, but just for the sake of card consistancy.
Basically QFT. My big problem with Deadguy has always been that it's a metagame deck that doesn't really win in the metagame it's designed to win in. Take Angel Stompy for instane. It was designed to beat everything that wins with creatures, and it does a very, very good job of that. Deadguy is basically designed to do the opposite, win versus combo and control. It fails in two respects. One, aggro and aggro-control are more prevelant right now than combo and control. This looks like it's changing, but not drastically enough for metagamed anti-combo decks yet. Second, and perhaps much more important, Deadguy doesn't beat combo and control very well. Where Angel Stompy does an amazing job at beating the metagame that it was designed to beat (creatures,) Deadguy too oft randomly loses no matter what it's playing.
In short, it's a metagame deck that doesn't fare very well against the metagame for which it was designed, which bares little resemblance to our current metagame.
I don't know what deck you're referening but this deck does indeed beat combo and control.
You're right that aggro is it's death knell when the disruption doesn't come through just perfectly though. But I think it's an easy problem to fix... a nice big creature that sticks around as a 3 of, along with 2 Jitte. That's 5 cards that other aggro decks have a very uphill battle against. The deck already has many tools to take out opponent's removal, so keeping one of these 5 cards in play isn't that big an issue. The deck can also play 2 MD Swords and 1-2 Tomb of Urami for additional anti aggro. The issue is to find that 3 of creature. I wanted that creature to be Angel, but people do have a good point that WW is hard to come by even with a dramatic increase in the number of fetches.
So we're just waiting around till Wizards printed a powerful undercosted creature in black. Till then I am running either Rotting Giant or Spectral Lynx as the 3 of. Neither creature fulfills the role perfectly, but it's a step in the right direction I am convinced, and gives us something more to stick a Jitte onto.
On a completely unrelated note, I was wondering if any of you thought Forbidding Watchtower could find a place as 1 of or 2 of in this deck. Odd thought I know. But effectively neutralizes one of your opponent's biggest threat, be it a Werebear or something similar. And unlike Maze of Ith, it can actually serve as a mana source when you want it to. It does eat up quite a bit of mana though so probably not. God I wish Spawing Pool was a half way decent card.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 09-13-2006 at 01:05 AM.
I can't see how it's been so "horrible":
8th Place- D4D February
7th Place- Kadilak's DLD
5th AND 6th- Iserlohn June tourney
7th- Aschaffenburg, Germany Championships
The deck is still placing. The only decks having a better run than this currently this year are the ones in the LMF. How does this make this deck so horrible, when obviously Germany lately has done better with it (with much larger player base by average, I might add), than the US has? Their metagame isn't complete shit, for one. People have a diversity of decks to play against, rather than just seeing Solidarity, Thresh, Goblins, and Angel Stompy. It would seem very apparent that when there's more than just LMF and almost LMF material, this deck does better. Check out the top 8 when this deck places, it's not just top 3 decks + random Deadguy, or complete jank + Deadguy. It's holding up against a lot of diversity, because it's nearly an impossible deck to hate against, and still relatively under the threat radar.
Not every aggro deck out there smashes this deck, otherwise it wouldn't hit T8 anywhere. Most of the field is aggro, barely anyone runs Combo, and there's no such thing as total control decks, short of the occasional BBS or Landstill decks here and there. Angel Control is up there as well.
With that said, let's continue on with what the deck's doing. In my build, I haven't killed off Verdict at all, in fact I've replaced 2 Wastelands with 2 more copies. I play 12 maindeck disruption, as well as SB StP to go along with Vindicate to hit resolved threats, which could very well come into the maindeck in place of my other 2 Wasteland and a Cursed Scroll's. Still trying to get a good setup to playtest against to see how this method does. I still REALLY like the idea of Grunt, but am torn on what to cut.
As for what is "beating" this deck, I'm personally saying specific threats, things that there's literally no answer to. Chump block, StP, Cursed Scroll, Vindicate, Shade, and now Grunt...that's PLENTY of answers to a resolved threat. Obviously 30% of the meta isn't beating 2 toughness, or else this deck wouldn't have even put up T8 results, especially next to decks we have in the LMF. We don't scoop to any specific thing resolving, there's always a chance to pull something or race it.
Here's things I've noted the deck doesn't like: Mystic Enforcer, Meddling Mage, Exalted Angel, Humility, Lightning Rift, Eternal Dragon, Nimble Mongoose, Werebear (only after thresh), and on the rare occasions we see it, a few of the Survival creatures (Titan, Troll, for examples).
Out of these creatures, Mystic Enforcer, Troll, and Nimble Mongoose are the ONLY things we have serious problems with (untargetable via black spells). Enchantments can be Vindicated. Eternal Dragon, Werebear, Mystic Enforcer, Mage, Angel.........all can be hit by StP. Nimble, and Troll are the only things that can't be removed for good.
Looking over the list of creatures we need to deal with, is exactly why I decided it was a good idea to look into Mutilate. Chances are when a Mystic resolves that's going to be Thresh'd, we'll be close to 6 swamps. With a heavy enough base of discard and destruction, Mutilate would have a very good chance of going off. This answers the entire field around turns 5-6, as no creatures have defense against it. Untargetable, pro black....you name it, it's gone. This is the best thing we have to a black Wrath of God. Nothing has a toughness over 6. If it does, we're probably going to die to that creature anyways, regardless of if we could target it.
Here's another something I was looking into, especially when running against aggro metas, and heavier on creatures: Mortivore. 4cc, a reputable curve number, can regenerate (good for chumping), and gets continuously bigger the more we can kill off, or let die. Against Goblins, he'd be a beast. Vs random U/G/x decks, he'd have relatively good consistent numbers, and would force an StP (saving Shade).
Again, the big thing is changing while still keeping itself "cheap". Something that regenerates, protection aspect, a solid toughness, first strike.....all are good things. We just need to figure out what we want 4 of to make a difference.
Mortivore really seems like a win more type of card.
It's worthless against combo (as is mutilate) and control, and is only good against aggro after you managed to take out a bunch of your opponents threats, not before.
But regardless, I really like the direction you guys are pursueing.
A solid fat beatstick may be just what this deck needs. Mortivore is unfortunately dead far too often, nuked by graveyard hate, and worthless early on and against nonaggro matchups.
But perhaps something like Jozum Djinn (Or Phyrexian Scuta) could work well.
Last edited by SuckerPunch; 09-13-2006 at 11:34 AM.
Man, the looks on people's faces once they see a Juzam played in Legacy for the first time in..........what like 10 years? I'd almost cough up the $400 just to get a deckset of those bad boys so I could toss them out at people's faces.
I'm doing a full Gatherer search for black or white creatures that have at least a healthy body size (4/4 or greater), with minimal drawbacks. I'll come back to this post later with what I've found.
I have done the same thing. I didn't come up with very much except Juzam as you said.. Well there is Grinning Demon which is 4cc but has a huge body.
I don't like the phyrexian negator at all, not worth mentioning.
Just MD Jotun grunt, he hoses entire decks on his own, and is very supportable with all the disruption this deck runs. He stops aggro rushes with his huge 4/4 body, doesn't die to burn...what more do you want for two mana?
I want a threat that goes through Chalice @ 1, Chalice @ 2 in the sideboard.
And a Cursed Scroll that just taps to activate. As well as a less mana-intensive Nantuko Shade.
I'm thinking about trying Djinn over MWS instead of Shade and seeing what happens. If anything overly interesting happens I'll post it up.
cards like Juzam:
Kezzerdrix
Phyrexian Scuta
Phyrexian Nigator
Ok. This is probably going to sound stupid but have you guys play tested with Paralyze? I used it in a Legacy about a year ago and it's pretty good. If you pull it off early, chances are that the opponent is not going to pay 4 any time soon to untap a 1-2 cc creature. Late game is a little worthless other than the fact that you get to tap a chump blocker but what do you expect from a 1c black card?
It's really hard to help out this deck because of its complexity. Like people don't know what to sideboard in for it, the same goes for people don't know how to make the deck any better (or fix it). Faith's Fetters would be nice but it costs too much.
Kezzerdrix isn't a bad choice, but Juzam is still the best option at a 5/5 (kills anything short of a Mystic Enforcer). This deck can't afford to run Negator, since there's no burn element to clear a path(such as Red Death). Scuta is an investment that lets the opponent glorify its death.
To let me see their hand, pick the best card out of it, and throw it in their graveyard....err...I mean Duress. Either way it can't get rid of a Nimble Mongoose. I'd rather have Darkblast, which can actually remove turn 1 (targetable, mind you) threats.
The problem is that against creatures (goblins, elves, whatever) this deck just have too many dead cards in mid-game: dark ritual, hymn, duress, gerrard's verdict, even sinkhole and hypno are quite bad against fast creatures.
Of course it's a strong meta call, but when the goblins are running rampant even 2 maindeck engineered plagues don't help. There should be some way to catch'em when you need'em and maybe there is room for a tutor or two instead of 2 duress?
Kezzerdrix seems interesting, but once I've finally cleared the board of dudes on my opponents side, the thought of me then taking 4-7 damage to the dome every turn isn't exciting. Scuta isn't all that bad, but if it's off a Confidant, you'll be paying 7 life just to get him in play. But, it's still a 5/5 for 4 which isn't easily dealt with outside of StP. And even then, you gain two more life than the initial investment of 3. Djinn is the overall best option as he's a big beater for a small amount with a very minimal drawback.
Scuta and Djinn seem like the best options for 'big' creatures in my opinion. There's no way I'm going to be able to afford Djinn's anytime soon and Scuta seems rather 'meh.' I'm not really sure though, I'm still gonna mess around with the regular creature base a little longer as I'm not really having too much trouble with it.
On a side note, I split for first again last night, but it's really not worth mentioning, as NOTHING remotely good showed up. And this deck beats up on random jank pretty well. Round 1 was against some U/W/g Hippo/Honden/Confinement deck (This is why I hate where I live), which I beat both games and left with 0 lands in play. Round 2 I played some sub-par Zombie deck, meh, 2-0'd him. Round 3 was against an Affinity build that apparently the guy playing thought he could make better by taking out the good Affinity cards and replacing them with Slagwurm Armor...Yeah...2-0. Then I was the only undefeated player (duh) so I didn't have to play in the semi finals, and I would have played the Hippo deck again, but he said he would split (Because he'd get smashed again), so we each got $15 in store credit. Usually we get at least some decks that are at least decent like Iggy-Pop and Ravager Affinity. Not last night I guess...I was supposed to go a couple towns over to a more competitive tournament, but a 5 page paper and a test today said otherwise. So I stayed home and made an easy $15.
The problem with Jotun Grunt is that it doesn't stay in play too long, not long enough to abuse Jitte. The whole idea for a big threat came from seeing how incredible a 4/4 was in this deck, but wishing ever so often that the 4/4 actually stayed in play.
I would NOT replace Shades with Djinn as someone above advocated. The main reason for the 4cc threat is to bring the threat count up to 15 like Anarky's build, but have all the threats be able to stay in play so that you can replace the Cursed Scrolls with the far superior Jitte.
I think Djinn, and to a much lesser extent Scuta and Grinning Demon are the best options we have. Demon just hates getting chumped, Scuta abhores getting killed, and I can't afford Djinn.
So until the DCI prints a halfway decent black or white or gold threat that only has a single W in it's casting cost, I'll make due with running 3 Rotting Giant and wishing they were Djinn. Giant is really good against Goblins though, and if paired with a Jitte is an absolute bomb even against nongoblins aggro decks. But Djinn would be a bomb with or without a Jitte in play.
Last edited by Clark Kant; 09-14-2006 at 12:36 PM.
Hey guys, long time shadow lurker, but first time posting...obviously. Nice to meet you all.
After reading all these posts, I noticed people saying that it loses to big creatures found in decks such as Angel Stompy, Faerie Stompy, etc. On a personal note, I found out after playing with this on MWS, that once something like a SSS or an angel hits the board, I die more often than not. Since most, if not all (depending on negator build), of the creatures in the deck are small, would something like Retribution of the Meek work? Or Perish/ Virtue's Ruin? Was thinking along the lines of hunted horror + perish or forced march for 0. Or even a sunscour (obviously using the alt casting cost) and then laying down the quick threats? Maybe these ideas are leading into a different direction or too expensive?
I've actually tested all of those at one point. The -problem- with Retribution of the Meek is that it doesn't hit much outside of Exalted Angel, Sea Drake, Werebear, and Mystic Enforcer. While these are all certainly worthwhile threats, the former two are generally the only power 4+ creatures in their decks (Excluding SOFI pumps), and there's a fair chance you'll be stuck holding Retribution while they beat you down with Silver Knight / Serendib Efreet respectively. The latter two are both hit by Perish. If Retribution said "3 or greater" instead of "4 or greater", i'd run it. But not quite as it is now.
Makes one wonder if Meekstone has a place in this deck, though. Meekstone's incredibly easy to cast, comes in off a Ritual combined with Hymn/Sinkhole/Wretch/Shade/etc, and is a dynamite replacement for something like Cursed Scroll, which can generally handle anything Meekstone can't (Except for like, 2/3's) and vice versa. Shade gets around Meekstone beautifully.
Perish and the ever underrated Virtue's Ruin are both solid Sideboard options, if you can fit them in alongside Plague and STP and whatever else. Personally, however, I've been having a lot better luck merging Perish and Virtue's Ruin into Dystopia. My current quandary, however, is that Dystopia hits my own Jotun Grunts, which is making me lean back towards the more reliable Withered Wretch. Between Dystopia, Plague, and STP in board, I feel pretty equipped to handle hordes of large creatures, and I'm tempted to see if I can squeeze in a couple Meekstones now.
As a rule of thumb, threats are always better than answers.
If you want more of an explanation, all the cards you listed are only good against those matchups that we are talking about. They are useless against combo and control. They also don't increase your own threat count and thus don't enable you to play Jitte over Cursed Scroll. I think the best bet is to stick with testing a creature like Juzam Djinn.
I think I am forced to agree.
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