All B/R update speculation.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I love both winning and Brainstorm, and I'm currently playing JunkBlade. Roll that up and tug on it.

Do what you want, you can. Choosing not to is affecting your enjoyment of a wonderful hobby to the point that you are bitching about it on an internet message board thread to what I assume are mostly all complete strangers. Ridiculous.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Stevestamopz]

Yes, and don't forget that Brainstorm is actually just as, if not more powerful than Ancestrall Recall because it always draws you three useful cards, and you always have two bad cards to shuffle away, with the fetchland that you always have, all this requires no skill, any monkey with half a brain can do it (this is also why Brainstorm decks never needs to take a mulligan) and so you see it's practically Ancestrall only better because it can't be misdirected, it is never countered and can't be hated because the hate is so weak (please give more powerful hate, Wizards) and it also always flips your delver and hides your hand from discard, rendering discard spells useless in the format, and don't even get me started on Miracles.

Were Cavius still around, he would write something very similar to that except he would like, mean it.

[Spam]

I disagree with this. Sure, Twin is a big deck, but so is Omni-Tell in Legacy, and Lands is able to be good despite being so bad against it. For example, Affinity and GR Tron are reasonably big decks that have issues dealing with Twin.

Though I suppose it is true that there are a lot of decks that can't deal with Twin that are out. The thing is, those decks tend to be decks that can't deal with things in general. For a Legacy analogy, a deck like Zoo isn't out because it can't beat Omni-Tell, it's out because it can't beat much of anything right now.

I'm just responding to the claim that Legacy has so many more play styles available because aggro hasn't been a thing in Legacy for quite a while. People often attack Modern for lack of control (fair argument, though there are still some control decks), but if we're going to complain about general lack of a notable archetype you have to admit the same fault for Legacy's lack of aggro.

My point is that Burn is a deck that casts what's functionally the same spell 7 times and then wins. You can't really "block" things like Lightning Bolt and Price of Progress. Burn does run a few creatures, but they function more like Burn spells that happen to have legs (Eidolon of the Great Revel certainly isn't played because a 2/2 without haste for RR is such a great attacker, but because it can hit the opponent in the face for a lot of damage from its ability).

Let me put it this way. While it's much worse than Burn, UB Mill (we're talking straight, all-in mill, i.e. Archive Trap and Glimpse the Unthinkable) follows the same basic strategy as Burn, it just attacks the number of cards in the library instead of life. Do you think that deck is aggro?

But more pertinently, even if we want to count Burn as aggro, it doesn't really do much in Legacy. The best "aggro" deck in the format doesn't rely much on creatures at all and doesn't put up that many results. Trying to point to Burn as some example that aggro is viable in Legacy seems rather weak.

If you're going to count decks that barely post any results at all, then sure (seriously, Affinity?). But in that case you'll have to count things like UW Tron, 8Rack, Blue Moon, and the various UWx Control decks (UW, UWR, Esper) as Modern control decks, some of which have done quite a bit better for themselves than the decks you're citing, so you're not beating anything "hands down."

Stand by what, exactly? Because that seems some reasonable diversity. Sure, a slant towards aggro, but the archetypes are represented (if one counts Grixis Control as control, at least). It's not like the Tier 1 Legacy decks seem that much better (there's certainly no aggro), though to properly compare them we'd need to settle a definite way of determining being Tier 1 and then apply them to both formats, whereas the methodology used to determine Tier 1 for Modern on MTG Salvation is different from what's used to determine Tier 1 on The Source. Not to mention that Tier 1 decks are never the full face of the format, you need to include the viable decks beneath them.

Though I would note that if you compare the recent SCG Modern and Legacy Opens, while the Modern open did manage to have, in its top 32, all of the archetypes you mentioned (aggro, combo, prison, control, tempo, and midrange), Legacy was noticeably absent aggro (unless you count Infect, which I don't).

I think modern has more diversity do to the higher presence of creature strategies in the format. This gives decks more ways to win with different strategies, if you can answer their creatures, off course. That's why, in my opinion, control sucks (to many creatures to deal with), and that's why decks like bloom are so hard to answer. Aside from titan they offer so few targets for your removals.
Legacy is different. Almost any deck aims to win trough one single (most of the times) non-creature spell. There's just not enough time to play creatures without a mana denial plan and you need cantrips to find your win condition or something tobstop them. If you want to change that you have to ban the cards that enables those tipe of strategies. If you want to change that yoi have to ban those tipe of cards, not the cantrips. It's like necro, don't ban the cards that allows to find it, just ban necro!
Besides in a format where sensei and terminus are legal you can't have an aggro strategy.
I think modern has many problems, but its diversity is the prove that non emotional and unpopular bans are always better that leaving players decide, they are just not able to see things in a detached way.

[menace13]

Pretty sure all your posts are just variations of hating Brainstorm

I will wait for you to find me ever saying hate brainstorm any fucking where on this forum. How long do you think you will need? LMK and I'll come back.

[Crimhead]

I wonder what's the most broken thing is you could do with Necro. I doubt it could 32/32 GP Top 8s like Brainstorm does.

You are right, Necro isn't a good comp. It never 32/32 ed a GP.

Neither has Black Lotus. Do you know what the secret is? Neither card is actually legal In this format!

Necro wouldn't need to go 32/32 to cause an issue because (likely) the decks it would support would have less variation than the decks which run Brainstorm.

If you guys seriously want to discuss unbanning Necro, go right ahead. To me the unabn is too unlikely, and the resultant meta to uncertain, to bother wanting to discuss it with you.

On the other hand, if you need to compare the current Legacy meta to a hypothetical and speculative meta in attempt to prove that Brainstorm is as busted as Necro then your going to need something a little more substantial to convince anybody.

I think modern has more diversity do to the higher presence of creature strategies in the format.

I feel the exact opposite! From my perspective Modern looks to offer very few viable strategies which are not creature-centric. Is there even a tier one creature-less deck at all?

That's why, in my opinion, control sucks

And there you have it!

[Lemnear]

I feel the exact opposite! From my perspective Modern looks to offer very few strategies which are tot creature-centric. Is there even a tier one creature-less deck at all?

As the creature powercreep is the central theme of MaRo's vision of MTG, I wouldn't even ask Modern for having creature-light or -less decks at all. Its just unsatisfying that mlst decks boils down to "I kill you because I have the biggest threat dominating the red zone". Its not that Wizards pushed creature interaction aside attacking/blocking and developed synergizing effects of small, cheap creatures at all. They just kept printing 3-6 mana powerhouses trumping each other with the result that there is basically "no game" happening in the first three turns of Standard and that impacts Modern as well and leads to the iffy picture a deck like Ascension leaves if paired against a midrange deck

[Dice_Box]

Lantern control has no creatures, Storm if it had not be banned into the stone age had good builds we thought creatures too. Elves (That new build) feels more like the old Legacy Elf deck of old, back when the kill was Emmy. It's fucking rewarding to play it too. It feels more like a Storm deck then a creature one.

The Griselbrand deck is cool, feels something akin to a Legacy deck in its speed and aggression, held in place only by its lack of cantrips, Grixis control is another deck that is not really creature centric. Runs Tasigur, Snapcaster and Angler. Snapcaster used about as much for his ass as Imperial Recruiter is. The other two just there to end out a game once you well and truly take control of it.

Modern is a good amount of fun to play when you want to turn your brain down for a night. It's a format you can go play after an hour or two at the pub. It's not as complex as Legacy on a spell level while also not being as predictable as Standard. But it doesn't deserve the heat it takes. A Modern deck running Arbor Elf is still more complex then a Legacy deck running SnT and that's something too many people overlook. It also offers its own complexity. There is not a lot of times you have to learn to play around Terminate in Legacy, Modern it's a pest. That's a skill you need to know. While you might not have to play around Force, there is still strong and effective interaction in the format. It just lacks the flair of Force, Brainstorm, Ponder and Daze.

Anyway, I doubt this is news to anyone, the card pool is smaller so it's different and less complex then Legacy, but that also makes it unique and fun when you want to play it. Playing Storm with a bunch of little green men made me happy in Legacy, makes me just as happy in Modern, even if I can't Natural Order for a Hoof in Modern.

[Crimhead]

Honestly I'm a little tempted to play Scapeshift - I like any strategy which is lands-centric, plus it looks a lot like a traditional stack based control deck. Tron also looks fun because you can play Tron, and 8-Rack because you can play The Rack. I keep thinking I'd like t play Affinity, then I remember I can't play Seat of the Synod. :(

I think I'd be a little let down by the meta though, and really miss things like Force, Wasteland, Dark Ritual, Cradle, Maze, and those cool Legends rares. As it is I don't have the free time to play nearly as much Legacy as I'd like, passing on easily half events in my area. Also, Even a Modern deck has a non-trivial price tag. For the coast of building Scapeshift I could get some cooler old/RL cards for Commander or Legacy which I might enjoy more.

[Noctalor]

I wonder what's the most broken thing is you could do with Necro. I doubt it could 32/32 GP Top 8s like Brainstorm does.

[Admiral_Arzar]

That's why, in my opinion, control sucks (to many creatures to deal with).

That's like, your opinion mang. Grixis Control being a DTB laughs at your opinion.

Honestly I'm a little tempted to play Scapeshift - I like any strategy which is lands-centric, plus it looks a lot like a traditional stack based control deck. Tron also looks fun because you can play Tron, and 8-Rack because you can play The Rack. I keep thinking I'd like t play Affinity, then I remember I can't play Seat of the Synod. :(

Amulet Bloom. No seriously - with Scapeshift you just play some lands and cast your one-card combo. With Bloom, you face extremely elaborate decision trees that involve sequencing Lands, tutoring for the correct things, etc. You will enjoy it, although it takes getting used to as the decisions are different, but no less complex. Plus you get to blatantly violate the turn 4 rule with a number of hands, and that's always a plus.

[Spam]

That's like, your opinion mang. Grixis Control being a DTB laughs at your opinion.



Amulet Bloom. No seriously - with Scapeshift you just play some lands and cast your one-card combo. With Bloom, you face extremely elaborate decision trees that involve sequencing Lands, tutoring for the correct things, etc. You will enjoy it, although it takes getting used to as the decisions are different, but no less complex. Plus you get to blatantly violate the turn 4 rule with a number of hands, and that's always a plus.

Grixis control has very little control in it, at least for me, used to legacy. Just my laughable opinion.

[Zombie]

Grixis control has very little control in it, at least for me, used to legacy. Just my laughable opinion.

This is just in: A deck full of removal, countermagic and card advantage tools that tries to wear the opponent down and then push through with a large threat or an academic win condition is not control.

Ladies and gentlemen:

Not Control Enough(TM)

//Creatures
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang

//Planeswalkers
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Liliana of the Veil

//Other spells:
3 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Terminate

4 Serum Visions
2 Thought Scour

3 Remand
2 Spell Snare

4 Inquisition of Kozilek

//Lands:
2 Island
1 Mountain
2 Swamp

2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
3 Scalding Tarn

1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave

2 Creeping Tar Pit

3 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Darkslick Shores

//Sideboard
2 Dragon's Claw
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Spellskite
3 Dispel
3 Molten Rain
2 Pyroclasm
1 Thoughtseize

[rufus]

Modern decklists? I thought this thread couldn't get any worse.

[Hoojo]

Modern Grixis Control doesn't have a reliable way to nullify several of your opponents cards at once (e.g. Moat, Counterbalance, Terminus.) The bulk of its cards are one-for-one answers that are replayed via Jace, Snapcasters, etc. I think that is what he is referring to.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Modern decklists? I thought this thread couldn't get any worse.

Considering the decklist in question is pointedly proving the idiocy of a poster, I'll allow it .

Modern Grixis Control doesn't have a reliable way to nullify several of your opponents cards at once (e.g. Moat, Counterbalance, Terminus.) The bulk of its cards are one-for-one answers that are replayed via Jace, Snapcasters, etc. I think that is what he is referring to.

So the deck with 6 Planeswalkers, a bunch of Kolaghan's Commands, and 8 ways to flashback its spells doesn't have the ability to deal with multiple threats or generate card advantage? Am I reading this right or did I just step into some kind of alternate universe where brain function is unnecessary?

[Lord Seth]

I feel the exact opposite! From my perspective Modern looks to offer very few viable strategies which are not creature-centric.

You'll need to properly define what 'creature-centric' is supposed to mean.

Is there even a tier one creature-less deck at all?

Well, there's not a tier one creatureless deck in Legacy either. You take a look at the "Decks to Beat" forum and every single deck there plays creatures. The only creatureless deck I can think of that's worth anything at all is Storm (which is not currently Tier 1), and technically Storm is not creature-less as it regularly runs Xantid Swarm out of the sideboard.

[Hoojo]

Considering the decklist in question is pointedly proving the idiocy of a poster, I'll allow it .



So the deck with 6 Planeswalkers, a bunch of Kolaghan's Commands, and 8 ways to flashback its spells doesn't have the ability to deal with multiple threats or generate card advantage? Am I reading this right or did I just step into some kind of alternate universe where brain function is unnecessary?

Key is AT ONCE. It one-for-one's most everything with no sure lock. No reason to insult me while you're at it either.

EDIT: Would that also mean that Jund is a control deck in Modern?

[Crimhead]

Key is AT ONCE. It one-for-one's most everything with no sure lock. No reason to insult me while you're at it either.

I guess a lot of Pox decks in Legacy aren't control either. Many of those run no main deck sweepers either.

[Admiral_Arzar]

Key is AT ONCE. It one-for-one's most everything with no sure lock. No reason to insult me while you're at it either.

EDIT: Would that also mean that Jund is a control deck in Modern?

I like to sprinkle insults in for flavor in my B&R posts. As for Jund, it is a midrange deck. The debate whether that makes it control or not has been raging literally since Jund was first in Standard. In practice, it plays like control against faster decks and like disruptive agro against slower ones.

I guess a lot of Pox decks in Legacy aren't control either. Many of those run no main deck sweepers either.

Heck, Grixis control in Legacy generally runs a bunch of 1 for 1 answers and disruption and pulls ahead via incremental advantage...just like the Modern one (!)

[Secretly.A.Bee]

That modern Grixis list is janky as fuck. Thought you should know.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!