Originally Posted by Gilderbarin216
i think archangel might be correct vs death and taxes. by turn 5-6 you can easily reanimate an elesh norn even for just a wrath effect to make sure the angel gets there.
-rob
I don't like Grave Titan against DnT, all he does is eat a STP to the face with nothing to show but two zombies on the field that Thalia can easily dispatch. Elesh at least kills everything except Serra Avenger, Iona locks up the game until Karakas/Vial, and Griselbrand draws you stuff. In my testing the Archangel does create a significant headache against DnT, but due to SFM its pretty easy to hit 8 mana. There really is no silver bullet against DnT other than getting two fatties down the same turn. Even Tidespout has his merits bouncing the dreaded Karakas.
Or a turn 1 Sire of Insanity, but that creature has been extremely unreliable for me.
My philosophy on choosing creatures to entomb is:
1. What will cause my opponent to scoop if it hits the ground? Elves/Food Chain/Other small critter decks it's Elesh Norn/Mono Color it's Iona
2. Can my opponent interact with it? I will call Iona on their removal color or use a shroud fatty. Grave Titan on Edict Decks
3. Can I afford to lose the life from reanimate if this creature wouldn't insta-scoop? Empyrial Archangel and Griselbrand typically pay off reanimating due to damage redirect and lifelink respectively.
Outlier decks like Lands I go for tidespout tyrant due to Maze of Ith being a pain in the ass along with bouncing the Marit Lage token. Having options in the form of Reanimator's toolbox attracted me to the deck vs Sneak n' Show which just involves throwing down two of the strongest creatures in Legacy.
Inkwell Leviathan is usually the #1 creature to go for against DnT, because they simply can't get rid of it. Although nowadays Council's Judgement can remove it, but they usually only run it as a 1-off when they run it.
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I used Archetype of Endurance before when our local meta has significant number of DnT decks. I animate him first then either followed by Griselbrand or Elesh Norn to beat DnT. My deck before also has 3 Pithing Needle maindeck replacing the 3 Lotus Petal slot in the usual build so Karakas wasn't a problem to me Game 1. Got 2nd and 3rd place before with that build.
With regard to Grave Titan - with my latest list - Grave Titan only help me with my Lands match-up. I lost to 4c Delver having Titan in play (the only creature I got in my yard when I was able to resolve an animate spell) - the Pyromancer elemental token just block the Titan and Zombie tokens. I think Sphinx of the Steel Wind can replace the Titan since Young Pyromancer is more common now than Liliana.
Archetype of endurance won me game 3 against death and taxes in a small local tourney last night. I plan to keep testing it, but so far I like him a lot in the inkwell/hexproof slot.
If you're anticipating a deck that uses Young Peezy most likely the rest of his creatures are gonna be small so Elesh Norn is gonna do more work wiping the floor than Sphinx blocking a single token (though gaining life is nice).
It was a wrong decision when I side in Grave Titan on that match-up as additional creature for my Show and Tell. I had Griselbrand in my yard also when I cast exhume however he responded with surgical extraction targeting the Griselbrand so I was left with Grave Titan. Sphinx would be more useful than Grave Titan on that match up in addition to Elesh Norn. Although there is still a possiiblity that a block from Gurmag Angler and a double bolt can kill Elesh Norn. For those who are still using Grave Titan, I think overall we can safely remove Grave Titan now in the deck (correct me if I'm wrong).
I am going to disagree. He fills the spot of big dumb beater. Sometimes you just need 10 power plus some blockers on the back swing. He is also great against edict effects like LotV. As well as being hard castable, I have won a decent number of games hard casting a grave titan.It was a wrong decision when I side in Grave Titan on that match-up as additional creature for my Show and Tell. I had Griselbrand in my yard also when I cast exhume however he responded with surgical extraction targeting the Griselbrand so I was left with Grave Titan. Sphinx would be more useful than Grave Titan on that match up in addition to Elesh Norn. Although there is still a possiiblity that a block from Gurmag Angler and a double bolt can kill Elesh Norn. For those who are still using Grave Titan, I think overall we can safely remove Grave Titan now in the deck (correct me if I'm wrong
as said above tyrant is the creature that literally makes lands a bye. they can't karakas it, they would need a triple punishing fire, and you can bounce the marit lage token all day long
The two contenders for the big dumb beater slot are Grave Titan and Empyrial Archangel. They each have the strengths and weaknesses that dictate to which meta they will best perform. Nobody here should be saying that Grave Titan is a bad target, he excels at pretty much every attribute you could want from the big dumb beater. But in an environment lousy with removal, the slower, safer Archangel will yield better results. So the discussion shouldn't be a contest between the cards, rather if the meta has shifted that edict effects are on the decline.
So, if I were a noob with Reanimator (and I am) what would be a good decklist to start off with?
In general I am expecting to run this in a mostly fair meta, with a few combo decks perhaps smattered about (more storm, less Omni).
I am thinking of a BUG build like I've been seeing, which agrees with me, because I have the Team America duals in FBBs,
Plus having Abrupt Decay of the the board seems good, in case someone decides to break out Miracles.
Thanks for any help.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
The largest distinction of the builds is Show and Tell or not. If you're in the S&T camp, you'll need Ponders and an otherwise cantrip heavy build to support getting both cards in your hand as fast as possible. If you're choosing not to run S&T, you'll need options to battle all that grave hate being brought in against you. Green does that well, offering Abrupt Decay and Pernicious Deed in the side. Thoughtseize and Duress do good work as well.So, if I were a noob with Reanimator (and I am) what would be a good decklist to start off with?
In general I am expecting to run this in a mostly fair meta, with a few combo decks perhaps smattered about (more storm, less Omni).
I am thinking of a BUG build like I've been seeing, which agrees with me, because I have the Team America duals in FBBs,
Plus having Abrupt Decay of the the board seems good, in case someone decides to break out Miracles.
Thanks for any help.
Here's what I ran in the JellyJam tournament:
4 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Griselbrand
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Grave Titan
1 Tidespout Tyrant
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Izzet Charm
4 Entomb
4 Reanimate
4 Exhume
2 Animate Dead
4 Careful Study
4 Hapless Researcher
1 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Dack Fayden
SB: 1 Inkwell Leviathan
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Keranos, God of Storms
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Darkblast
If you're not sold on the red splash, swap the red duals for the associated basic, and turn the Izzet Charms into either Ponders or Thoughtseizes. The Dack Fayden was a test where Misdirection once was. As we've been discussing, Grave Titan might not be the best creature in the current meta. Also Iona might be better in the main, it all depends on the local decks you're facing. If you're looking for a more balls to the wall speed deck, make the Hapless Researcher into Lotus Petals and you should be set.
Thanks, I think I like the idea of Iona in the main, but I will see how it comes together.
I think I would definitely want Show and Tells, as it seems like that would give me the best chance to play through (or around) some of the common grave hate. Pernicious Deed is one of my top three favorite Magic cards so no need to twist my arm to get me to play it.
When I get home from work, I'll see what I have laying around, I know I have everything expensive, I'll probably end up missing something dumb like a Careful Study...
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
im new player as well, been lurking around for awhile ;) Do reanimator really have the needed amount of mana for Pernicious Deed? isnt it a bit too slow? i mean at 16ish lands (Lotus petals not included tho) isnt abrupt better anti-gravehate card straight up? or even maelstrom pulse? or maybe im missing something again... i usually do ^^
Well, I've played Deed many times and the amount of those that I needed to pop it for more than 2 is small. I think I have popped it for more than 3 only once. It does cost a bunch of mana, but one of the great things is how it really sweeps up entire board states.
I think the mana here is probably fine to play it, because it would be very rare to need to ever go higher than X=2. Often Deed is also a Time Walk of sorts, since once it's there, they won't want to add to their board. Oh and it's great versus Miracles.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Thanks alot for the input! I love pernious deed aswell after ive played nicfit. just always thought it was to expensive for reanimator till now, im definitly gonna try it in the sideboard some day in the future when whole deck is completed:) Like you said its great against miracles!
Thanks again! =)
Well, like clockwork, I own more than enough of everything for this deck, except Carefull Studies. Figures.
I'll pick some up soon and give this a whirl in a couple weeks then.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
As H said, popping Deed for more than 3 is very rare. In my sideboarding, Abrupt Decay almost always come in, where EE and Deed only come in against opponents who I expect to overwhelm me with hate permanents. Death and Taxes, Elves and Maverick come to mind as opponents who beyond main deck headaches will bring in additional nonsense that will make a few Decays not nearly enough to pave the way.
Regarding playing Show and Tell, I think you'll be stressed to support the cantrips and hand hate necessary to get the combo in hand along with ensuring they don't have some nasty surprise of their own, all with also bringing in Abrupt Decay as well. Most times it's usually an either or build. Especially when most people run City of Traitors out of the side to support a faster S&T.
I've seen less of Sol lands to power out the show and tells in the remaining Reanimator lists using the plan B. Usually lotus petals are enough to help power out a faster SnT I've noticed.
I want to run a white splash for shits and giggles so I can power out a Loyal Retainers reanimation option.
Hi Everyone,
Played in the SCG invitational this past weekend in Somerset New Jersey, 8 rounds of legacy and 8 rounds of standard. Went 6-2 in Legacy with Reanimator and 5-3 in Standard, good for a top 64 finish and $250. I'll just write about my 8 rounds with Reanimator and spare you the Standard half.
Going into the tournament, I was set on playing Omnitell. However, I felt the deck had a huge target on its head, despite not being all that good. At the DC legacy open a couple weeks back, Omnitell did terribly overall on day 2, despite winning the tournament. One match that felt bad was the popular 4 color delver deck. Game 1 was usually excellent, as they only have FOW and Daze to interact with you. However, postboard, most builds bring in 3 pyroblasts and 4 therapies, which is extremely difficult to beat. As a result, I decided to audible last minute to an old favorite: Reanimator. The metagame is extremely soft to graveyard decks at the moment, with most decks packing only 2 grave hate cards in their sideboard. A combo deck that ignores pyroblast felt like the right choice. Additionally, reanimator also crushes just about every other combo deck: storm, sneak and show, omnitell, elves, dredge, list goes on.
Given my last minute audible and no time to test (I have not played reanimator since 2013), I copied Jake's list card for card, printed out his SB guide, and went to town.
As it turns out I played against 7(!) 4 color delver decks, all of which copied Bob Huang's winning list from Legacy Champs. The only other deck I played against was Omnitell, which I crushed easily.
Due to facing the same deck every round, I won't bored you with a round by round report, instead, I'd like to think of this as a case study and analysis on how to fight delver decks in general. Hopefully it will give everyone a very good idea of how to play against the most popular delver variant and learn some key principles, which I'll break down by Game 1, 2 and 3, as they all play fairly differently:
Game 1s - You are a huge favorite game 1 vs. delver. They usually only have 4 daze and 4 FOW for interaction. Deathrite is only good turn 1, and they have to know you're on reanimator, otherwise, they won't even fetch their green source for deathrite. For them to win, they have to be on the play, probe you to know you're on reanimator, have a turn 1 deathrite resolve, and keep it up the entire game. Even then, you can always exhume with 2 fatties in the yard. I won 6 out of 7 game 1's against 4 color delver during the tournament. The only game 1 I lost was due to a mull to 5, which was quite mediocre and opponent had pressure plus deathrite.
Sideboarding: I followed Jake's general plan of siding out all countermagic (4 daze, 4 FOW, 1 tidespout tyrant) and bring in discard, decays, and a couple needles (+1 thoughtseize, + 3 duress, +3 decay, +2 needle). I didn't have any disfigures, which would have been excellent here. 4 color delver will bring in 2 surgicals, 2-4 therapies, and maybe pyroblasts and vendillion cliques, they almost always cut all the bolts first and some slower creatures for these cards.
Game 2s - Assuming you win game 1, game 2 you'll be on the draw, and being on the draw sucks. I lost most game 2. While most games were close, the ones that were not close almost always involved wasteland. Due to only playing 15 lands and 3 petals, a double wasteland draw usually was game over. I sorely missed having a basic island in the 75 to cast my cantrips without getting wasted right away. The wastelands also made things like spell pierce and daze much better against me. These games were also grindier than game 1's, so having more lands would have been much better in most cases. Because everything dies to Elesh Norn in that deck (and they have 0 outs to it in the 75) and they board out bolt, you are in no rush to combo off. I only won 2 game 2s, going 2 for 8 for game 2's.
Game 3s - Assuming you lose game 2, you'll be on the play here. Wasteland is not as threatening when you're on the play, but again, due to the light land count, I often found myself in situations where if a petal were a land, I'd have won the game easily. There were a couple times when I needed to use a petal to cast brainstorm or ponder to draw into a land. Those plays felt terrible and needless to say, I lost both games where I had to resort to that. I won 4 game 3s, going 4 for 6.
Key Takeways:
1) Play lands instead of petals: Moving forward I would recommend a 17 or 18 land build with 0 lotus petals. Petal helped me play around daze once in 8 rounds and got me a turn 1 griselbrand once in 8 rounds. But even that time, if my turn 1 reanimation got forced, I would've been very behind. While petal is great game 1, I rarely wanted it postboard. Perhaps in a more combo heavy meta, petals would be good, but if delver is going to be so popular moving forward, I don't think the petals are needed.
2) Play a basic island: Speaking with Jake after the tournament, I understood the reason for not playing the island, however, the value of a basic island against a wasteland daze deck was very clear, since it makes wasteland bad and help pay for daze when you're going off. Moreover, postboard games are very grindy and wasteland becomes much more of an issue there.
3) There is no need for Show and Tell: Most of the delver decks brought in pyroblasts, expecting Show and Tell. Being able to blank that card is very important, as I was able to win a few games by taking their FOW, leaving their blasts in hand and reanimate a fatty. With needles and decays, it was also easy to answer deathrites and other permanent hate cards. The main issue with S&T, though, is that it is a different game plan from the reanimation plan, forcing you to keep fatties in hand. S&T is also bad against all the therapies running around. There were many games where my opponent tears my hand apart with discard, only to die to a topdecked reanimation spell. Until Omnitell ceases to be "tier 1", I would stay away from S&T.
Overall, my 5-2 record (vs. above average invitational players, including Christian Calcano, and Johnathan Sudenik) is a fairly good representation of the match-up, about 65%/35% in reanimator's favor. Moving forward, if we can get the miracles match-up to 60-40, and D&T to 50/50 then I feel reanimator will be a phenomenal choice for any tournament.
Thoughts, feedback and questions welcomed!
Cheers,
Hank
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