Hello, everyone! I just recently got into Legacy and would appreciate some help. THIS is my current list, except I'm playing 1 more Gitaxian Probe and 1 fewer land.
1. What do you all think about playing 19 vs. 20 lands? I like the idea of having another Probe, but I can see including the 20th land for a slightly stronger mana base.
2. Can anyone either link me to a sideboarding guide or give me some pointers? The only real guide I've found is Tom Ross's, which is great, but doesn't really tell me what to bring in or take out. I understand that you may not always want to stick to a preset sideboarding strategy and that changing things up depending on what you see from your opponent is important, but some general advice would be great.
For example, my current plan for D&T is: (OTP) -3 FOW, -2 pierce, -3 Probe, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Karakas, +1 Nature's Claim, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spellskite, +1 Pithing Needle
(OTD) same as OTP, but -3 daze instead of FOW
Am I bringing in too much? Karakas bouncing Thalia has helped me out quite a bit, Crop Rotation in response to Wasteland and Rishadan Port is great, the 3 artifact hate feel necessary for Jitte and Spellskite, Sylvan feels great in every fair match-up, Spellskite will at least protect an infector from STP/Jitte, and Pithing Needle helps against pesky lands, Jitte, and Spellskite.
3. Why do most of the more recent lists only have 3 Vines?
i treat vines as a counterspell for removal, bonus will be it's pump function. become immense is more explosive and is only for 1 mana (usually)Originally Posted by battousai555
i boarded them all out vs any unfair for permission slots.
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Vines is great also agains Wasteland. you tap Inkmoth for itself, a forest and you trade 1-1 (with the plus that he loses a land drop and a permanent)
Just to be clear, I'm not questioning the fact that surgical is a good card, I just disagree in the way you use it in some MU :)
I think bringing it vs RUG adds variance to your deck, which is not where I want to be in this MU. Surgical-ing bolt only to die to pierce/waste/dismember is not a risk I think is worth taking.
I've found this to be one of Infect's most difficult matchups. The sad fact of the matter is that this version of the deck shores up a lot of the matchup weaknesses (fast clock with Mentor, early interaction with Daze) while still hanging onto the bits that we love to hate in the original list (Countertop, Terminus). Play the matchup as if it were regular Miracles, but be wary that you have less time and more problems to deal with. Apart from some stray StP's that might be in your sideboard, nothing is really going to make this matchup better except experience.
Thank you for the response! Any general sideboarding advice you can divulge?
If you are playing against wastelands, keep vines and crop rotation in.
Against slow decks that aren't threatening your life early bring in sylvan library
Be careful with krosan grip it can still be countered by counterbalance
You have a lot of graveyard/reanimator hate, make sure you adjust for any expected meta
If you bring in grafdiggers cage (or switch your SB to include rest in peace) take out your digs and become immense
Th emore you play the deck the less dependent you will be on git probe.
Any specific match up you're curious about?
That definitely helps, thanks! So for Delver decks w/ Wasteland would you bring in the 2nd Crop from the SB, if you had my list (at the top of the page)? Or just keep the one in the main in? I guess the match ups I'm most curious about would be Delvers (all of them, really), Omnitell, Miracles, and Storm.
Also, for what kind of match ups do you take out Force vs. Daze? For example, my current plan for D&T is: (OTP) -3 FOW, -2 pierce, -3 Probe, +1 Crop Rotation, +1 Karakas, +1 Nature's Claim, +2 Krosan Grip, +1 Sylvan Library, +1 Spellskite, +1 Pithing Needle
(OTD) same as OTP, but -3 daze instead of FOW
Not sure if this plan makes sense.
Your FOW vs Daze plan makes sense from a tempo perspective. Against a deck like storm any version I would keep all the permission you have available in and board out vines and crop rotations. Against delver decks it's a bit tricky cause they all play slightly differently
You'll want submerge to deal with any tarmogoyf/angler deck (maybe a delver that is kept back when you go for the win), crop rotation to deal with wasteland and targeted removal like swords to plowshares, and lightning bolt. You'll usually board stifle out, the tempo hit is great but people start playing around it, especially against delver decks you'll want to be the beat down and stifle doesn't play into that plan.
If you are playing a GBx deck (elves, delver anything) keep your vines of vastwood in, it is the only answer you have to abrupt decay and they will have all the abrupt decays against you. Against delver your best threat is blighted agent, don't be afraid to lead with an elf to draw the removal out of their hand and play the agent when you can protect it.
Your board doesn't have much to deal with delver decks it's really submerge, sometimes spellskite, crop rotation, and maybe flusterstorm/fow. I tend to play heavier on the permission in g2 and g3 I'm willing to board out become immense, git probe(s), stifle, and occasionally a brainstorm.
Having trouble accessing the exact list, Battousai. I'll try again when I'm not on mobile.
FOW's come out against other Delver decks, exception is the occasional must-counter SFM that fetches a Jitte. Keep a mix of counterspells in against D&T on the play, then -1 Daze +1 FoW on the draw (maybe 1 pierce on the play, 0-1 on the draw depending on how ambitious you feel.)
Against Miracles, side out 1-2 Hierarchs as they're often swept away by Terminus when they go after your threats. Keep an eye on how your opponent plays g1 to determine how many dazes you want to keep, then adjust accordingly on the play and draw. FoW's typically all stay in, you can side out a probe to make room as they're only good in the first turns and after that are CB fodder/looking at 1-2 card hands in the mid/late game. Crop Rotation is strong, but keep in mind that it plays very poorly in the face of CB. I recommend siding it out if you're not very experienced with the deck, but there are times when you would keep it in for the matchup.
Omni and storm are similar in board strategy. Cut down to one Vines and one Inkmoth, then bring in any relevant hate/permission. Storm players have also recommended taking out 1-2 Hierarchs on the draw, but this is more contingent on the number of spell pierces and flusterstorm you're running. You can also bring in an extra Crop Rotation if you play it, tutoring up a Wasteland is a fine play against storm.
Feel free to ask for more specifics. As an aside, I strongly disagree with boarding out brainstorms in any situation. Along with Invigorate, its the only card I would never consider sideboarding out in this deck.
Thanks for the reply! Against which Delvers would you bring in Spellskite? He seems particularly good against Delver decks that have Lightning Bolt because he's a 0/4.
Creatures (12)
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
Lands (19)
1 Forest
4 Inkmoth Nexus
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wasteland
2 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
Spells (29)
1 Become Immense
2 Berserk
4 Brainstorm
1 Crop Rotation
3 Daze
1 Dig Through Time
3 Force of Will
4 Invigorate
2 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
3 Vines of Vastwood
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Spellskite
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation
2 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
1 Nature's Claim
2 Submerge
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
Thank you for the advice! So if you keep in FOW for U/W/R Delver's SFM, what do you take out instead? Probes, Stifle, any delve cards? Also, for which Delver match-ups would you bring in any of the following: Pithing Needle, Sylvan Library, Spellskite, Crop Rotation, and Flusterstorm? Pithing Needle on Wasteland seems nice for my Inkmoths.
I found myself sideboarding berserks out a lot, basically against every removal heavy deck with counters (uwr delver, miracles, 4c delver). Maybe it is wrong and i sacrifice too much speed, but berserk is only good with other pump spell and I dont want to walk into card disadvantage so badly. I also side out crop rotation against delver decks for same reason.
BTW I tried white SB splash (1x savannah, 1x karakas) for 2x swords and 2x rip and I really like it, rip is nuts against 4c delver.
Last weekend I played small legacy sideevent at GP Prague, went 31 and then split finals with ur delver, may pairings were 4c delver (2:0), rug delver (2:0), mentor miracles (1:1), dnt (2:0)
main was pretty common list with 20 lands (1 wasteland), 1 stifle, 1 crop, 1 dig, 2 pierce, 1 ponder, 3 daze, 3 fow, 3 vines, 2 berserk...
sb was:
1 dispel
1 hydroblast
2 pierce
1 fow
1 savannah
1 karakas
1 sylvan library
2 krosan grip
2 swords
2 rip
1 grafdiggers cage
Still don't think you bring in the full set of FoW's, 1-2 copies should be enough. I'd bring in any sort of cheap disruption against Delver decks, so that'd be a great place for Flusterstorm to come in.
Sylvan Library is trash in those match-ups, you really can't expect to trade life for card advantage while surviving for any meaningful amount of time. Needle comes in against Grim Lavamancer decks and Jitte decks, maybe BUG if you anticipate a lot of Planeswalkers, but Deathrite/Wasteland doesn't justify the slot. I think Crop Rotation is generally bad against Delver decks, as the card itself is negative card advantage and Wasteland tends to give your Inkmoths a little bit of trouble. That said, the card is very difficult to play properly, but has huge upside if used well. It's one of the cards I'm tempted to cut vs. any blue or Chalice deck, but usually leave in and win/get blown out 50/50 because of it.
Consider cutting a probe against RUG, as they're the fastest of the Delver variants. Some number of Dazes and Stifle come out on the draw,
Going to comment here and say that Spellskite is a very dangerous card to use against any green Delver deck. You're very likely to see artifact removal for Inkmoth in game two, which in turn is used on Spellskite to give all of your opponent's Goyf's +2/+2. It's best against UWR Delver, as they're playing a large number of removal spells (Bolts, StP's) and no Goyfs.
I completely agree with what Jesture is saying here. Sylvan Library is awful versus delver decks. You're going to bring it in when your life total isn't a factor against decks like miracles.
I don't run spellskite in legacy for the reasons jesture pointed out. Looking at your list I would bring him in against lightning bolt just like you would in modern. You could also bring it against abrupt decay but the artifact hate will be real.
Thanks for the help, guys! Would you say the 4 bolts and 0-2 Forked Bolts that tend to be in Grixis Delver/Control warrant a Spellskite from the board? Seems like it'd be good to me, but I'm still assembling the deck and don't have any Grixis experience yet. Also, any advice in general for the match-up? I saw an Infect player beat Grixis Delver a few days ago on the SCG stream, but it looks pretty rough.
Spellskite is fine against Grixis lists, though I've found it does very little in the face of Gurmag, TNN, and Pyro tokens going wide. In all honesty, you're probably better off cutting the Spellskite out of the 75. I've been playing one for the mirror in my local meta, but it seems lackluster in almost every other situation. You'd almost always rather have an extra piece of permission, or some utility spell to deal with post-board hurdles. Keep in mind that Spellskite can only redirect half of forked bolt, and that any one damage on it will put it within bolt range, so it's not quite the immovable wall one would imagine it to be. Not that it's bad in the match-up, but take some time to think about whether or not it's worth the slot in your 75.
General advice for the match-up is the same as every other match-up. Don't overextend (into forked bolt) and play cautiously (don't go for the kill unless you have to / are certain you have it.)
I've completely gone away from Spellskite. Since the rise of Grixis delver and 4C delver (read delver decks with bolts, forked bolt, rough/tumble) I've been testing Absolute Law (1-2, typically 1) and at the moment i've yet to be dissatisfied.
I quite like it, as both RUG and Grixis have real problems removing it, and if they spend counterspells on it is fine for me as well.
I does not help against decay or STP, but there are more bolts in my meta than any other removal, so I guess its a meta call.
Note that it probably only makes sense to go this route if you already play the white infect board. Its not tough to cast if you do.
I've also wondered if a singleton wild defiance could be worth it (still not helping against DK or STP, but as seen in modern it can be insane offensively too). It basically gives your creatures pro red spells (Law has the advantage of giving pyromancer and tokens the "can't block" ability and make your own dudes quite the nice blockers themselves against the occasional Goblins, etc. I dont like the 3 CMC of course, but tapping out for it doesnt seem so bad to me.
Just my thoughts.
Also, to what extent do you guys use Dispels from the board? I have never tried it, but typically i need protection against instants, when i "go for it" (and pierces sometimes has zero effect).
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
For those want to avoid the white splash and look for another passive tool against red decks, Chill is a card. I usually have 1-2 blue blasts in SB but if I expect heavy red meta, I fit one lonely Chill with them. It's mainly against bolts/pyromancers but has value against decks with Past in Flames and Blood Moon as well. Depending on things, it can be absolutely gamebreaking or just delay a bolt or pyromancer for a while. It's also one of the better cards against Burn, not that I have had issues even without it. White splash is different, I recommend trying Chill if you play UG.
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Discussions in this thread are becoming very interesting :)
1. On Spellskite:
I've had similar experience with Spellskite. The main problem is that it is a slow card and while it shuts down one angle that your opponent has against you (mono-target red spells and abilities, like bolt and grim), a good control player will attack you from another angle (discard, countermagic, etc). For example, if you play against Grixis control and lead with Spellskite, you expose yourself even more to Cabal Therapy.
The only situation where I found Spellskite very strong is when it is also a piece of hate against your opponent strategy, for instance against Burn. This also explains why Spellskite is played a lot in this deck in Modern: it protects your guy while disrupting both Twin and Burn. This conclusion actually applies to several other protection cards in Infect, like Flusterstorm/Vines/Daze: they don't leave your opp with a clear way to attack you.
EDIT: for the same reason, I find Neffy/Hopo suggestions on Absolute Law (protection+evasion) and Chill (protection+disruption) very interesting, and better than Spellskite in Legacy.
2. On SB vs Delver:
I agree with the statement that Library cannot be used aggressively against Delver, however I tend to keep them in the MU. In my experience Delver players tend to cut on threats g2/3 and mulligan disruption-light hands against us. Which means that there is often a resource-trading game going on post-board, and the filtering power of Library is quite important in this situation. It is a MU where I'd rather have more ponders, but I'd feel uncomfortable increasing the variance of the deck post-board, unless your have bombs (like RIP I guess - I'm still not very familiar with the white splash).
Also, if I expect Pyroblast/Pierce/Fluster g2, I often decide to play g2/3 without FoW. This often depends on how much real hate cards the delver player has against us, but if they decide to own the stack instead of the board I'd rather let them do that (they are better than us at this) and be the 'green' deck - only exception being our Flusterstorms, which don't care much about their countermagic.
I have had experiences with my infect deck (stock list pretty much) where I flood completely or get totally mana screwed - way too often IMO. I know this happens to any deck, but I still think think i can actively fight this issue by increasing the can trip count.
We've talked before about people trying preordains, etc, and I will the next time be trying +1 or +2 ponders in addition of the singleton I already run.
There are typically 2 flex slots (DTT and STIFLE/3rd pierce often seen) and I will cut the pierce first. I rarely ever draw DTT and even more rarely i can cast it and even MORE rarely it resolves, so i will try without that also.
I think ponder is too good to only run 1 off, even with such a tight list, so I will let you guy know if it works better for me with 2 or 3.
Neffy cut a ponder! We should kill him
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