Getting through Chalice is a relevant consideration when discussing fair decks because odds are that sooner or later you're going to cast a Chalice, and then exactly how effective are those Deathrite Shamans and Lightning Bolts? But Thoughtseize isn't meant to go in against fair decks. It can go in against fair decks, but if it becomes a commonplace action you're doing it wrong. It's mean to go in against unfair decks. Decks that we otherwise have very little interaction with. Because it's all fine and well to say "well, Chalice at 1 stops X deck", but the trouble is living long enough or having room enough to make that a reality. When you sit down against Storm or Reanimator or whatever other unfair and oppressive pile of garbage and you look at your hand of two-drops with no Mox Diamond, the first thing that crosses your mind will always be "how the fuck am I living long enough", and Thoughtseize is your answer to that.Originally Posted by Ganfar
Thoughtseize won't win the game, which is why I don't advocate running too many copies, but it will buy you time enough to land something that can.
This should be the slogan of this deck :)
Nothing wins the game on its own(except Teeg vs storm preboard), we are just playing timewalks. a thoughtseize vs combo is a timewalk, a chalice is maybe 3 or 4, and so on.
The trick is to buy enough and choking the bastard slowly!
That's a good answerd. I will try the deck out on sunday. I have two Thoughtsize in sideborad and that's the highest nummer you can have, I think.
This is pretty accurate. Everything just effectively buys more time. With Chalice and Canonist and Teeg buying a lot more time than most others. But Thoughtseize does make a very effective stepping stone and helps you stay afloat. As far as count, I personally use one while I know schniggaz uses two, but you definitely shouldnt go above two. It just doesn't have any lasting value. Hitting a Thoughtseize post-board is great. Hitting all two or three or four means you're basically fucked.Nothing wins the game on its own(except Teeg vs storm preboard
The trick is to buy enough and choking the bastard slowly!
It is not like you have to run two Thoughtseizes in the board, but I feel like needing two spells that interact on turn one with your opponent, like the others already mentioned.
Perhaps we can try running a Pyroblast or a Mana Tithe :D Or perhaps someone has another good suggestion?!
@Pilhas: Flight is pretty much the same in Germany ;)
I still didn't bother buying Thoughtseizes so my current discard is 2x Cabal Therapy in the sideboard. Did anyone else try this? It's actualy not bad. You don't lose life and you can flashback it with something like Dryad Arbor. Ok, it's more skillful because you need to guess right, but against most combodecks you often know what you don't want them to have in their hand and if you hit, they lose every card of it. It's awesome hitting two Infernal Tutors against storm :D
And it feels terrible when you wiff on the Infernal Tutor call and get shown a hand that still spells your utter doom. Which is, by arbitrary distinction, more often the case than hitting even a single Infernal Tutor. Even assuming "best case", the theory of calling what will immediately kill you only actually works against your standard Storm combo. Going up against something like Reanimator, what do you name? Going up against Show and Tell, what do you name? Failing to hit, failing to hit the right thing, or failing to make them react means that you will not live or whatever follow-up you have won't ever see the light of day.
Cabal Therapy is just a bad option. There's no inherent way to glean information as to what might be in your opponent's hand, and a singleton Dryad Arbor hardly counts as a sac-outlet. If you're truly looking for a budget option, Duress is the way to go. Hell, it's not even a budget option per se. I was strongly considering running Duress over Thoughtseize when I was coming up with any odd-ball way to get an edge on the Burn match-up. Seventeen year old common that's been reprinted in bulk eleven times and it still manages to be one of the go-to solutions.
The crazy me is gonna run a Hangerback in the next monthly(~2weeks).
Don't ask me what I am gonna cut, or why I think is good! I don't care about reasoning
Yes.
But it's ok. We still love you.
I'll be jamming Titania, Protector of Argoth as my 61st card. Additionally I'll be trying out this sideboard configuration:
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Slaughter Games
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sulfur Elemental
See! I am not the only crazy man here!
Not to mention the times they will be able to cast Brainstorm in response to your discard spell. I'd much rather be resolving Thoughtseize when that happens--I won't get the best spell, but at least I won't whiff completely.
Miracles, especially the Mentor version, is easily the single most played deck in my meta these days. Do you guys have any tips for gearing my sideboard to beat it? In any case, I want to add an unconditional sweeper, and I'm not sure if getting another Toxic Deluge will be worth it. Has Damnation been tested? We're already trying to get double black for Liliana, but I'm not sure whether it's fast enough in the matchups where we're likely to want it, especially since we tend to board out some or all Loams and Libraries against fast decks, making it harder to hit four mana on time.
Damnation is basically an inferior Toxic Deluge in every way. The life loss should never matter.
I play Dread of Night to combat Miracle Mentors, though you have to sneak it under the counterlock most of the time for it to be effective.
Regardless, that and TD are 2 cards in my board dedicated to dealing with them and both seem to work rather well. Engineered Plague is another option, if you prefer that to DoN.
Speaking of Sideboards -- I still need help with mine. I can't figure out what to put in the last two slots (ideally something against S&T and Storm, they feel like my worst matchups but my playtesting is still rather limited).
What I have so far:
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Golgari Charm
2 Thoughtseize
1 Thalia
1 Dread of Night
1 Tabernacle of Pendrall Vale
1 Choke
2 ??????????
So far, I'm pretty happy with everything above but struggling with what to add and have swapped those last 2 out constantly. Thoughts?
Last edited by RhoxWarMonk; 09-06-2015 at 04:30 PM.
Maybe another copy of Canonist or Thalia? They're worse against Omni than Storm, but are pretty versatile SB cards overall and nice to have in multiples I think.
If you are playing with tabernacle a second thalia is a must I think(theoretically at least)
I really like to play 2 canonists but that is up to you. Cards you may include: pulse, thalia, canonist, slaughter games, reclamation sage
Earlier there was some disagreement over inevitability in the Miracles matchup, and I'd like to explore that a bit further. Assuming a hand that could go either way, do you default into aggression or defense? How does that change depending on who goes first, in sideboarded games and knowing their approximate build? Is it wise, or at all possible, to hedge your bets and stay in midrange mode until you know more about their build and draw? I'm really curious to hear some thoughts about this, since I keep thinking that we're the aggressor, but we have a lot of control cards and they're not really huge on actual card advantage.
Personally, I'm leaning towards an aggressive role against Entreat Miracles and a more controlling one against a Mentor build, but there are so many variables, even before you consider your hand in each specific game.
I actually feel a bit different.
If you are playing against an Entreat build, you can close the first game by locking them out. We only lose to a timely entreat and between Decay, Wastelands, Chalice and Teeg we should make sure that it doesn't happen or that it is manageable.
Against the Mentor Build I feel that we need to be more aggressive. Since a Mentor can spiral out of control while we are locking them out, I believe we should put some pressure on the table while locking. Keep them busy while we lock them so they don't have the time to establish Mentor.
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