[Deck] 12 Post

[caw_86]

There's only two ways to counter Trickbind in Legacy: Blind flip on 2 from CB, and unmorph Voidmage Apprentice. Wipe away stops the Omni player from going off. They're both insane and underplayed, IMO, but they're not for every deck.

Except id doesnt always, usually the first thing the omni tell player does is play a second onniscience before you have prioity, really need a trigger to stop them

[TimHarding]

Except id doesnt always, usually the first thing the omni tell player does is play a second onniscience before you have prioity, really need a trigger to stop them

There are usually >15 ETB effects in the deck, so this plan is great IMO. I play both split second effects, in the board. They also splash hate very well against most of legacy too.

[Ponders]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

I think anything that steers away from cmc 1 because of chalice, and has a cmc of no greater than 3 has to be preferred for this format hence the krosan/wipe.

[Zotmaster]

I don't understand why you guys prefer trickbind and wipe away over needle and krosan grip.
Needle is so great against a lot of thing, is inferior to trickbind only against decks that use abrupt decay. It costs only 1, is a permanent, great against rishadan port. I can understand trickbind in a build with 2/3 needle as secondary choice or with FOW, to have blue cards to pitch.
Wipe away is in our deck only for omnitell basically: why not use krosan? 1 green is easier to have than UU; destroy omniscense is better than bounce it;against miracle is a great card (wipe is useless); in general, against mud, chalice,equipment, there are a lot of things to target. Why wipe?

Pithing Needle is inferior to Trickbind in many ways; far beyond just Abrupt Decay. The most glaringly obvious one is that Trickbind is virtually impossible to counter. Like, holy shit, it is laughable that anyone would try to trivialize that fact. Sure, it's great to be able to Needle a Liliana of the Veil or a Deathrite Shaman...until it eats soft counters or Force of Will. Sometimes a single turn is enough, or against an unsuspecting planeswalker or Wasteland, the card could be gone anyway. Needle also turns on various other removal spells: Wear / Tear, Smash to Smithereens and Krosan Grip to name a few.

The other key with Trickbind is it always, always, always has something to hit. Storm? Sure, cast your spells. Grats on draining me for 2. You can stop Stoneforge Mystic from tutoring or you can stop the living weapon trigger of Batterskull. Playing against Sneak and Skill? Congratulations, you just cast Time Walk, guaranteed (though to be fair, a Sneak and Skill opponent can then learn to hold priority and activate Sneak more than once...but I've never seen this trick not work at least once). Miracles player about to put Top on top to counter something? Nope, sorry. Not happening. Craterhoof Behemoth coming to town? Yet another out aside from Crop Rotation, which means the odds of you actually having said out in your hand is that much greater. The absolute worst application of Trickbind is hitting a fetchland, in which case you still cast an uncounterable, instant-speed Stone Rain, which means congratulations, you are running Wasteland in 12-Post. True, Needle could hit a fetchland too, but any smart player will just fetch in response to you casting it. Otherwise, it can still be played around. Trickbind is an unknown asset in your hand until needed.

Why is Wipe Away in the deck? Because again, you are greatly de-valuing its versatility.

Here is a complete list of decks where Wipe Away has valid hits:

* All of them.

Bounce a land to make the Storm player who cast Infernal Tutor sad. Against Infect, bounce an Inkmoth Nexus: a card that dodges all sorts of countermeasures otherwise. Blightsteel Colossus doesn't kill you this turn. Even bouncing a stupid, flipped Delver of Secrets could be a massive tempo loss, enabling you to take the game. And if you're feeling super sneaky, you can even bounce one of your own permanents for some kind of advantage. Krosan Grip can't handle lands. Krosan Grip can't handle creatures that were cheated into play.

Wipe is useless? Hardly. Even against Miracles, you might be dealing with Monastery Mentor tokens, Angel tokens, Venser, or who knows what else. All of this buys you time. None of this is handled by Grip.

[MechTactical]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

[Ponders]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post901994

Check my latest attempt above. Replace stifle with trickbind. I'd recently taken out tyrant, ugin and 1 candel to replace with 3 needles (bad wasteland weekend, people practicing for gp). You could go with 2-3 wipeaways, or an extra snt, a third candel, a 4th trop. A cavern, keep the ugin. Ancient stirrings. These are all things id like to find room for.

I might try it rock's way and drop a vesuva or two.
+ 2 wipes
+1 ugin
+1 Tropical
- 1 vesuva

subtract the 5th fetch, the 3rd vesuva. Tabernacle another option, but i like the card too much.

no relic, no map, no platinum.

[deadlock]

I completely agree that 3 if not 4 Stifle effects are part of the core of this deck. I am not sure if not running the actual Stifle is stronger than Trickbind though. Trickbind has 2 major advantages over Stifle imo: Chalice, SDT (with CB in play). These are big ones, but in all other cases Stifle seems better. One major advantage of Stifle is obviously its usage on turn 1-2 (like Trop go or 2nd turn drop a Cloudpost with blue mana up). Stifling their first turn fetch or a later one (which can be done by TB too ofc) isnt the worst play in my opinion. While this isnt a tempo deck, just delaying the opponent can make the difference. Repeal, Wipe Away and also Remand fall in the same category. Concerning the latter one, I would love to use it, but it may be underpowered in Legacy due to the general low mana curve. My thinking is that it actually "counters" everything compared to Spell Pierce or Repeal. I get gladly convinced of the superiority of Trickbind, so dont get me wrong.

[Rock Lee]

Since there seems to be a grand non-comprehension about why trickbind is in the deck, and I don't foresee dropping it any time soon, the card is there for one reason and one reason only: The card allows you to play defensively or offensively regardless of if you are winning or losing.

It isn't mana denial, although rarely it can be used as such.
It isn't cute gimmicks, although rarely it can be used as such.
It isn't a cantrip, although rarely it can be used as such.
It IS an angel's grace for 1U that reads "You don't lose the game, and your opponent doesn't win," which is all this deck wants. I have never seen multiple trickbinds and thought they were completely dead.

Like all amounts of high level play in this deck, trickbind requires you to be planning out your next 3+ moves and determining what is the correct play to get safely to your 4th. Things I trickbind in this category:

Wasteland
Delver flips (especially if set up with brainstorm)
Fetchlands post-brainstorm
Wasteland
Miracle Triggers
Deathrite shaman when people are broadcasting their need for the 3rd mana or show the spell.
Glacial Chasm - Cumulative Upkeep
Glacial Chasm - Land Sacrifice
Karakas
Wasteland
Stoneforge Mystic
Equip:
Inkmoth Nexus / Mutavault / Creeping Tar Pit
Wasteland
Liliana -2 abiilty
Liliana -6 ability
Jace -12 ability
Wasteland
Craterhoof Behemoth
Chalice of the Void
Kuldotha Forgemaster
Spine of Ish Sah
Karn Liberated
Wasteland
Emrakul extra turn
Primeval Titan trigger
Candelabra of Tawnos
Expedition Map
Eye of Ugin
Wasteland
Griselbrand
Sire of Insanity
Helm of Obedience
Rishadan Port
Storm Trigger (Fluster/Tendrils/Warrens)
Wasteland
Knight of the Reliquary
Wasteland
Wasteland

[MechTactical]

Dudes,

since no one wants to post a suggestion for a trickbind / fow list I guess I have to do it. I took the FoW build from Mr. Tim (a few pages back) and jammed in those trickbinds and wipe aways. Don’t look at the sideboard I don’t know what it’s supposed to be. Let’s just discuss the possibility of playing FoW MB with trickbind, as I don’t want my $ to be wasted!! I mean come on why do you guys refuse to play FoW? Rock dude why no FoW???

Any thoughts?

Land (25)

• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 1x Vesuva

Instant (16)

• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Force of Will
• 3x Trickbind
• 2x Wipe Away

Artifact (7)

• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 1x Expedition Map
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top

Creature (7)

• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 1x Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage

Sorcery (5)

• 2x Ponder
• 3x Show and Tell

Sideboard (15)

• 1x Glen Elendra Archmage
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 1x Platinum Emperion
• 1x Pithing Needle
• 1x Relic of Progenitus
• 1x Surgical Extraction
• 3x Swan Song
• 1x Trickbind
• 2x Trinisphere
• 2x Spell Pierce

[Neko448]

If anyone else wants to watch, I found the link to the past broadcast (mislabeled as FNM for some reason):
http://www.twitch.tv/themeadery/v/15732954
My semifinals match against BUG Delver starts at around 54:00.

Oh! They are still posting these! Here you can watch me stomp Miracles at 27:50 and get wrecked by Alluren at 2:08:00.

Dudes,
I mean come on why do you guys refuse to play FoW? Rock dude why no FoW???

I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

[Ponders]

Oh! They are still posting these! Here you can watch me stomp Miracles at 27:50 and get wrecked by Alluren at 2:08:00.



I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

I could see taking the 4 force out. Try replacing with 1 snt, 1 wipeaway, and 2 tutors of some kind, either ancient stirrings or worldly tutor depending on whether you find yourself with a hand that has no creature, or no land.

[TheBoozeCube]

Maybe I'm just drunk, but is anybody else considering Scour from Existinece? I don't play Karn because paying 7 for spot removal seems inferior when you can wipe the board for the asme price. But at instant speed in monogreen? Maybe? I don't know. What is everyone else thinking?

[MechTactical]

I'm not drunk and i'm considering Phyrexian Dreadnought for a trinket / trickbind build.... any thoughts? it's probably too cute right?

[Poron]

well if trickbind is sitting in your hand for 5 turns and your opponent is in topdeck mode.. why not? it's 1 card on 75

It's an additional way to win in case of Blood Moon.. I would consider it if you're already playing Trickbind and Trinket Mage.

Probably Show and Tell is just better at that point

[MechTactical]

I know personally I've played Force a lot, while the card is very good we don't exactly generate the card advantage necessary to turn it into a real threat. Having it isn't even a guarantee we can make it through a game against storm or omnitell, so it isn't super duper thrilling. There are metagames where it is an incredible snap in, but I'm not so sure right now. Making our mainboard really like in order to support a card that doesn't feel very dependable doesn't make me feel very good. In your list, maybe you want to go -1 ponder +1 DTT? I feel like Trickbind effectively does a lot of what we want out of Force of Will sans hitting a Blood Moon or Ruination on the stack. Though personally I have gone -1 Trickbind +1 Needle in the main, but that's because I seriously <3 Needle and keep losing to Alluren

Okay Dudes, I’ll play along. So here’s my netdeck. I moved the FoW to the sideboard (I just have to include them – spent too much money to not run them in the 75, I guess I should have bought fluster, but it seemed too expensive in comparison) and basically took some ideas from Mr. Tim’s FoW list (namely trinket -> explosives plan) and copied Mr. Rock’s Trickbind build. The idea would be to change to the FoW build post-board if needed.

A few questions for u guyses:

Is this a valid sideboard plan?
Can you guys help me to pimp the sideboard - what do I need to run to compensate my weaknesses MB?
Should I run glen / venser?
Should I run more board wipes?
Any other questions I should be asking? Answer those as well

Many thanks for your help.

Land (25)
• 1x Bojuka Bog
• 1x Cavern of Souls
• 4x Cloudpost
• 1x Eye of Ugin
• 1x Forest
• 1x Glacial Chasm
• 4x Glimmerpost
• 2x Island
• 1x Karakas
• 4x Misty Rainforest
• 4x Tropical Island
• 1x Vesuva

Artifact (10)
• 1x Candelabra of Tawnos
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 2x Expedition Map
• 2x Relic of Progenitus
• 4x Sensei's Divining Top

Instant (13)
• 4x Brainstorm
• 3x Crop Rotation
• 4x Trickbind
• 2x Wipe Away

Sorcery (4)
• 4x Show and Tell

Creature (8)
• 1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
• 2x Platinum Emperion
• 4x Primeval Titan
• 1x Trinket Mage

Sideboard (15)
• 4x Force of Will
• 1x Glen Elendra Archmage
• 3x Krosan Grip
• 1x Surgical Extraction
• 3x Swan Song
• 2x Trinisphere
• 1x Venser, Shaper Savant

Maybeboard (8)
• Phyrexian Dreadnought
• Pithing Needle
• Spell Pierce

[Neko448]

A few questions for u

Yeah, sucks that you just got the Forces. I know the feeling as I just cut my Tabernacle. Flusterstorm has a ton of application in and outside this deck so they're a really good pick up.

I don't think Glen Elendra Archmage is very good, and Venser probably isn't either, but might still be worth playing if it interests you. No Blue Elemental blast? I like Swan Song less with no Repeals, but I guess it is better than straight losing.

Stepping away from that though, I can't ever beat a Monastery Mentor on turn 3. Engineered Explosives does work against him, but it never feels like enough. Is there other stuff I can be doing to deal with this guy? How do people feel about builds with MB Meddling Mages?

[mykatdied]

Yeah, sucks that you just got the Forces. I know the feeling as I just cut my Tabernacle. Flusterstorm has a ton of application in and outside this deck so they're a really good pick up.

I don't think Glen Elendra Archmage is very good, and Venser probably isn't either, but might still be worth playing if it interests you. No Blue Elemental blast? I like Swan Song less with no Repeals, but I guess it is better than straight losing.

Stepping away from that though, I can't ever beat a Monastery Mentor on turn 3. Engineered Explosives does work against him, but it never feels like enough. Is there other stuff I can be doing to deal with this guy? How do people feel about builds with MB Meddling Mages?

Mainboard meddling mage feels like it dilutes the deck too much. Your are probably better off with something like cyclonic rift or just using wipe away to essentially time walk them and buy another couple turns. Obviously Glacial Chasm can help, but there is always the issue that if you don't get something going after then it is all for not.

[maCHOOga]

Thanks ZotMaster for some great insight. Now that we are all convinced that trickbind is the way to go and i happen to have 4 in my binder, can anyone suggest a FoW+ Trick build? is it feasible?

When Combo was more prevalent, I was running 3x FoW maindeck. Against the fair decks, I would FoW their first threat and make them burn a FoW to keep their threat or Daze it setting them effectively back a turn. In the fair matchups, they would get immediately removed into three sideboard cards. The challenge becomes you need to play enough blue cards to support FoW. I usually shoot for 15 maindeck when including them. Right now my local metagame is largely fair decks, so I can justify not including them.

I'm actively working to tune the bant version from Eternal weekend to suite my liking. There's one thing I don't like about the bant build, the lack of shuffling cards. Right now, I basically have 5-6 fetches and 3 crop rotations because termini take up spots.

Has anyone tested Alhammeret's Archive in the archetype or is just a "win-more" card as I think it is?

[owerbart]

Is running KoTR an obsolete plan?

[Postman]

When Combo was more prevalent, I was running 3x FoW maindeck. Against the fair decks, I would FoW their first threat and make them burn a FoW to keep their threat or Daze it setting them effectively back a turn. In the fair matchups, they would get immediately removed into three sideboard cards. The challenge becomes you need to play enough blue cards to support FoW. I usually shoot for 15 maindeck when including them. Right now my local metagame is largely fair decks, so I can justify not including them.

I'm actively working to tune the bant version from Eternal weekend to suite my liking. There's one thing I don't like about the bant build, the lack of shuffling cards. Right now, I basically have 5-6 fetches and 3 crop rotations because termini take up spots.

Has anyone tested Alhammeret's Archive in the archetype or is just a "win-more" card as I think it is?

I tried it once. Con: close to Titan mana and no comes into play effect. But if it hits the board, your opponent is in great trouble^^ Brainstorm has to be countered, SDT as well and lifegain is insane. But it didn't feel like a card you need to win, because it didn't support my main goal: landing Prime Time asap. It's sweet, but felt like win-more. Most of the time, other "traditional" cards are better.

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