Hey this is Gleicher. I had given up on Pod after Treasure Cruise destroyed legacy but since they banned it I decided to pick it back up again. Dig through Time is a pain in the butt, however it's not nearly as bad.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
They were missing a Thragtusk in the initial list but I think it's there now. I didn't play a Thoughtseize main like they have on there.
In the swiss I played against and beat:
UB Tezzeret
Miracles
Shardless BUG
Elves
BUG Delver
Double ID'd, then lost in T8 to the same BUG Delver deck.
Thoughts on the deck:
1. Minister of Pain is fantastic. There's a lot of stuff in the format that is vulnerable to it, and it really helps out an otherwise terrible matchup (Elves). A great reason to play Pod again (though the deck still has its issues).
2. I think I'm off Gitaxian Probe. It is great of course when you go Probe into Therapy but it doesn't happen often enough to be worth it, and the rest of the time it just cycles which is actually pretty bad because the deck needs its mana and its life. It would be different if you could afford to play 4 but you can't, both because of the life and because of the deck space.
3. I'm done with Riptide Pilferer in the board. Vedilion Clique is a much stronger card and I'm finally ready to admit that. Also just making combo decks discard 1 isn't great against a lot of them, and some even have creatures to block with. Clique does more in other matchups, like Miracles.
4. The Trinket Mage package is great, and I highly recommend it. Sensei's divining Top makes you about 10X more likely to get an unintentional draw but the power is so high in a deck with this much shuffling, I can't imagine playing without it now. Engineered Explosives was also great.
5. Dryad Arbor was pretty instrumental to fetch up several times and I'll keep it around. However, there might need to be another real land added. This could probably replace 1 of the probes. I think the other could be replaced by a Ponder or the 4th explorer. I worry about flooding out but I think with Top in the deck it's less of an issue, and the extra mana is even more valuable.
Sidisi to get recurring nightmare is definitely an intriguing option. Adding another 5 drop to the deck is scary though.
Godless Shrine is the true scrub land.
Dumb jokes out of the way, I really do like Meddling Mage. Shardless BUG sometimes use a Savannah & Meddling Mage out of SB to great effect, and I have to imagine it was similarly valuable (if not more so) here.
congratulation on the top, yesterday i've made another 4-2 with my BUGr Pod and i'm thinking about what deck to bring at Ovino 10 in Italy, between this and Sylvan Plug.
note: try Yasova, she's incredible
Turn 1 Uwr Stoneblade 1-2
Turn 2 Dredge 2-0
Turn 3 Infect 0-2 (lol)
Turn 4 Omnitell 2-0
Turn 5 Brug 2-0
Turn 5 Brug 2-0
With the following list
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Baleful Strix
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Phantasmal Image
1 Eternal Witness
4 Brainstorm
3 Birthing Pod
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Swamp
1 Island
2 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Thragtusk
1 Polluted Delta
1 Taiga
1 Yasova Dragonclaw
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Notion Thief
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Magus of the Moon
(these 3 were Keranos, Anathemancer, Recurring Nightmare)
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 1 Swan Song
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Pernicious Deed
1 Magus of the Moon
I want to find something better at cc4 than Notion Thief
Dudes-16
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
Non-Dudes-22
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Vindicate
Lands-23
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Windswepth Heath
3 Verdnant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Pithing Needle
2 Choke
1 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Thoughtseize
1 Dryad Militant
2 Containment Priest
1 Humility
1 Dread of Night
1 Ashen Rider
Round 1 (Dredge): He mulls to 5 will I control the board with DRS, Teeg and a jitte. Game 2: Miltant and Priest do work, he firestormed them away but I get priest back with stronghold
Round 2 (GU Post): Just a crappy matchup. I get Emrakul game 1, mull to 5 and ugined with a rhino out.
Round 3 (Reanimator): I make the mistake of tapped out with a ooze in play and get punished for it. Game 2: I have the choice of needle on turn 1 or 2 and then tap for ooze on 2. I choose to just tap out for ooze. But he still get the turn 2 Griselbrand. There was a point where he showed in Iona vs my Siege Rhino that if I rip my karakas, I win. Sadly, no.
Round 4 (Oops all spells) I get Turn 1'd game one and scoop to a therapy. Game 2: Thought seize into teeg into sword of feast and famine. Game 3, he can't go off. Thoughtseize into. Canonist into deed to kill 3 chrome mox
Round 5 (Burn) Rhino into Rhino into Jitte was good. thragtusk and jitte made an appearance game 2.
Round 6 (D&T) Long game one with him having a flickerwisp/batterskull/active jitte/mom vs my sigarda/batterskull. Can't find a removal spell to save my life. Game 2: First turn dread of night hurts a lot, but batterskull/manrikui takes care of my batterskull. If we had another 5 minutes or so, I probably would have gotten a draw (I had DRS, another creature and a SoFaI)
Round 7 (Grixis Omni-tell): Almost dropped but stay to see what I could do. I therapy a pyroclasm out of his hand (after he had burning wish) while I knew he had an Emmy. Game 2, I don't board in my k-grip or golgari charm. Omni vs humility while I have a SoFaF out, I get him down to 3 before he finds a wish for petals and kills me.
The post match up just sucks so hard. The only way I have beaten it is with a Mindcensor. D & T is just a grind at times. I wonder if a go back down to 22 lands and add a decay back in. Dromoka might go back in over Thraggy.
Thrun may go back to the board. Maybe just some crappy match-ups yesterday.
I think my try Sylvan Puig for a few local tourneys before SCG St. Louis. I still get to Rhino people at least.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
May I recommend Murderous Redcap for cc4? It has been in my list from day 1 and I've never thought about dropping it - it's great.
Yasova Dragonclaw is hilarious. Stealing something and sacrificing it to birthing pod or cabal therapy sounds like a delight.
I've played Redcap and probably he's still the best slot, but dunno, with 4 colour i would prefer something more incisive...
Currently i'm playing red only for 2 Magus of the Moon (top hate vs Post and lands, bad MU) and Sulfur Elemental, top vs Mentor.
Are there any alternatives?
Last edited by Memories of the Time; 09-22-2015 at 06:35 PM.
So I've been sifting through the last 5 or 6 pages looking for some discussion on the most interesting card the new Zendikar set has to offer for Nic Fit and couldn't find anything. Is anyone else psyched about Painful Truths? This card pushes non-blue midrange decks to a new level (Jund, Junk, Dega). Finally we have our own Treasure Cruise. I am definitely looking at 3 copies if I choose to play Junk Fit again.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I dismissed it out of hand. How is it any better than Read the Bones or Abzan Charm?
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Baleful Strix
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Thragtusk
1 Grave Titan
1 Aetherling
1 Griselbrand
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Reanimate
1 Show and Tell
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Brainstorm
4 Entomb
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Batterskull
3 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Island
//sb
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Krosan Grip
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Disfigure
2 Flusterstorm
2 Duress
1 Show and Tell
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
Update after more testing.
Jace/Vryn is still The Truth, and has been moved up to 4-of. Loam was consistently average - it had uses but was mostly unexciting, so it came out. Deep Analysis also came out after I never actually ended up needing to get it. Entombing for a Therapy is usually a fine usage for an extra Entomb. The Waste became an 8th fetch with Loam out of the deck.
I put in a pair of Kitchen Finks for testing. They're solid stallers with good synergy with the deck, and the lifegain may be relevant to help offset the reanimates and fetches. I also put in a Batterskull -- we all know how strong Batterskull is in Nic Fit in general -- this deck can use the lifegain much better than most, and it also opens up the line of kill/discard their SFM, renimate their SFM, grab Batterskull. This line sounds pretty cheeky, but it's actually come up fairly often for me as something that I wished I had in my deck to take advantage of, so, we're going to try it.
Sideboard's moved around a little per changing matchups -- this deck does better against combo than most, if not all, Nic Fits I've played. In contrast, its Delver matchup is a bit worse, and while Deathrite Shaman isn't nearly as annoying as it is for traditional reanimator decks, it's still a nuisance that deserves killing, so Disfigure is getting tried out.
I've nicknamed the deck Herbert West. I doubt anyone else really cares // even gets the reference, but I was tired of calling it "reanifit," because that sounds retarded.
Drawing 3 cards is a lot better than drawing 2 cards.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I was going to get the cards together to play a reanimate version but at the last min threw a bug midrange deck together (shardless-less bug, no goyf, AV or shardless. Snap, tombstalker and a few more cantrips and 1 mana counters instead) that went 4-0 so I might be off the nic fit for a bit while I play around with this. I may look at the bug control fit lists too as usual though.
Painful truths can be the real deal in non blue nic fit lists. people were talking on this thread about nights whispers, harmonize, etc. This is just better. It also happens to line up perfect with a vet therapy opener (provided the mana works out accordingly) and would be brutal. The lack of it being an instant is also less important when you dont play blue and only play at sorcery speed.
Instant speed is for filthy hipsters. 3 life is quite a chunk though. And we're already quite top heavy as it is, so how many more 3-drops do we want to add to this deck..?
Also, Herbert West got a lol.
Skeletal Scrying isn't better?
At X <= 2 you draw 2 cards at best as opposed to 3 with Painful T. Also, in extreme cornercases (or very early in the game) it could happen that one does not have a filled graveyard. So no, Scrying isn't better then Painful Truth. At 4 mana it does the same as Painful Truth, at Painful Truth + 2 mana you draw 1 extra card. But that's just a bad Tidings.
From the last tournament I played Rea NicFit with, here is some food for thoughts:
- Griselbrand is lackluster. He is even worse in a list not playing FOW.
- The 3 main "entomb" target are Cabal Therapy, Elesh and Iona.
- I had "aetherling" in hand, just one game, and ended up shuffling him away. I have never wished to entomb + reanimate him. Even if he is only to shore the Miracle MU, I bet we could find something better on a wider scale.
- I see two lines with "Pernicious deed" in your list ? Typo ? I guess it is a maelstrom pulse, right ?
- I am worried of anti grave strategies "post board". The deck gets really hard to pilot when you are facing RIP / Leyline. Bad luck or not, 4 TNN came in each time and I never drew/saw one during G2 & G3 (against fair deck, obviously).
- I don't own any Jace, so I played 1 snap / 1 liliana / 1 careful study. It worked well.
- Many times, I had "Recurring Nightmare" in hand and either I was already winning or I just ended up shuffling it away. I see that you have more creature than me, but still I think that is too "cute".
- Grave titan is amazing.
- Life from the Loam was also average. However, I did like a lot the lone wasteland.
To be discussed anyway.
Aetherling sucks balls. Elesh Norn should always be in the main 60 when running a deck that can cheat it into play. Griselbrand is mostly overkill, if you manage to get it onto the battlefield chances are you've got the game in the pocket. Usually it's the worst cheat-into-play target one can have. Blazing Archon can be an insta-win vs. certain decks. And the fact that it isn't a legend does come in handy from time to time.
Also, Herbert West Fit tries to do too much. You try to be able to smash face AND win via "combo", yet lack the ability to smash face consistently or stall long enough to force the combo through.
Those that want to cheat fatties into play should try the Summoner's Egg list. At least that beast has some synergy in its plans, also limiting the number of slots one needs for all necessary bits (leaving more room for removal). Fun fact: Elesh Norn is often better then Emrakul, lol.
I would drop aetherling also. In addition I am not a fan of recurring nightmare either. Griselbrand without fow I agree with Ralf on this. I think right now the list is a little scattered. It wants to be able to cast the targets (tusk/titan) yet also not in GB and elesh, etc. You want to play sweepers, show, jace I mean it is a little all over the place. I think we need to focus more. I think you either need to commit a little more to the reanimation side of things or lose some of that and play a nic fit deck that can combo off. That being said I think a reanimate list that has the vet engine and the occasional ability to cast some of the targets has a niche.
Truths is better than scrying. 1-You dont need a graveyard, that is a big deal post board and early game. 2- It is more efficient. Truth will be a 3 mana draw 2 rarely and a 3 mana draw 3 most of the time, that is a better rate than scrying 3- Truth will only played in junk/jund fit decks so instant speed is not a big deal 4- I doubt scrying is cast for 4B+ much of the time. That is the only time it is more powerful. Draw 3 for 3 is fine late anyway as I would rather draw 3 and play something than dump an entire turn and 1/2 my remaining life into draw 5.
The lifeloss is not trivial but I am assuming this goes into some junk deck with rhino + sfm/jite/bskull or jund with hunt/tusk. If those decks want to hang with the blue decks they need to draw cards. Aside from library/top, this is probably it.
I do not remember off the top of my head the lists ppl on junk are on but what is the typical curve? People were literally talking about moving to a whisper based draw engine if top was banned. Now they give you a card that is better? I would rather pay 3 draw 3 than 2 draw 2. I dont play junk so take all that for what its worth, it all just IMHO
Painful Truths seems interesting. I've shaved cuter stuff:
3 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
2 Pernicious Deed
2 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Deathrite Shaman
3 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Sylvan Library
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 2 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Tsunami
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
Now there's 2 Painful Truths, 3 Tops, and a Sylvan Library for card advantage/selection. I think that'll help the stalls we sometimes get in.
I think you are still being too cute.
Rhino truly shines with equipment and your list is screaming for playing at least Jitte + Batterskull.
Thrun can easily be chump blocked all day.
Recurring nightmare is "nice" but looping Rhino is more likely than not a sweet dream.
Why don't you try something more "Rock/Maverish" ?
I firmly believe that in the current meta a list like the following could be really strong.
Here is where I am after a bit of testing.
Btw, I started with 2 Painful Truths and went up to 3. The card is really powerful.
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Plains
1 Savannah
2 Bayou
2 Forest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Scrubland
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Veteran Explorer
2 Siege Rhino
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Cabal Therapy
3 Painful Truths
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Sword of Fire and Ice
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
Turn 3 Painful Truths, turn 4 Rhino or even Obstinate Baloth seems like a major beating.
I like the card in a really grindy, tapout control deck. I hope that doesn't mean it's just another blue card in Legacy. There are definitely interesting things you could try.
I think you basically tune the deck to crush any fair matchup, then overload on disruption and try to win two post board games vs. combo. Play lots of removal, name counterspells with therapy so you don't get your truths dazed, and try to drown them in card advantage like Shardless does. Honestly, the card probably shouldn't even be in your deck postboard against combo -- make your deck leaner with hatebears and pinpoint discard.
I don't have a list immediately, but I do like this card as a way to solve some of the problems this deck has currently in the fair matchups that used to be so good.
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