Any updates/changes? Doing some testing tonight and throwing Maverick into the gauntlet, want to know if you have any big changes.Originally Posted by sdematt
Here is the list I have been testing lately with some minor tweaks since my last list. I am running straight GW since I am stubborn.
- Most of the time the CoCo come out in sideboard games for more relevant spells.
- Voice has not been great IMHO, only a win more. I have found that if I am ahead on board already I want to overextend with a Voice for a potentially large token.
- I really have liked the 1 of Wingmare in the main as a 4th Thalia with flying, the flying with some exalted triggers can add up and seems to be really nice sometimes.
- Courser is ok in some games. I don't think the life gain has been relevant. The top card land ability has been useful in games, especially with Sylvan Safekeeper. The only downside is the top card visibility to the opponent. There are enough shuffle effects with GSZ, KotR, and fetches to make this nice though.
- Birds of Paradise has seemed meh. Not sure if I want something else in this slot.
- Aven Mindcensor is ok when you are on the mana denial plan with Wastelands. Flying is decent.
- Scryb Ranger is nice to get extra mana out of light land hands which is nice. The untap is fun and can catch people off guard.
- Sylvan Safekeeper is kinda boss. Having the ability to drop a Mom and him and know they are safe is real strong. Even with a Thalia on board, if they want to spend 3 mana and a card for one land (after my board is setup) is fine by me. Eternal Witness helps get these lands back in a pinch.
- Eternal Witness is nice.
- I tweaked the board a bit because DRS was being a real big issue. Adding another Pithing Needle helps in those matchups, as well as being good vs. Top and planeswalkers.
- Krosan Grip is great. Expensive, but great.
- I don't know how much anti grave hate I need, but I am considering shifting those slots around depending on more meta games matches I play.
- Holy Light x2 in the board is the straight concession of "I can't beat a resolved TNN". It is also decent against Token decks using Young Pyro, Elves, Empty the Warrens decks, etc. Not GREAT, but a necessary evil since I am not running black for ZP.
---22 Lands---
4 Savannah
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
---18 Green Creatures---
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Birds of Paradise
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Eternal Witness
1 Voice of Resurgence
---8 White Creatures---
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Mother of Runes
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Aven Mindcensor
---12 Utility Spells---
1 Sylvan Library
1 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Collected Company
===============
---SIDEBOARD---
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Choke
2 Holy Light
1 Banishing Light
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Pithing Needle
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
I get this reasoning but this card makes me cringe so hard. Why not try Explosives? Cleans up tokens very well and can be set to 3 with a mana dork.
Just spitting out an idea: why not try Painful Truths in Maverick? My thought process:
1.) Draw 3 at a pretty competitive cost.
2.) Does well in multiples, unlike Sylvan Library (not knocking Library).
3.) Interesting interaction with Thalia. Granted, it makes it cost more, but hitting 4 colors for Converge isn't TOTALLY unfeasible. Especially if you splash a 4th color for say, Slaughter Games in the side.
It would probably take the spot of Library and maybe a Stoneforge.
Thoughts?
Painful Truths cost more. It's a one time thing. Sylvan Library can be used repeatedly on multiple turns.
As for beating TNN, there's a local guy here that plays Merfolk and it can be beaten. In game one you can race it between your own damage and removal of the other merfolk. You can also gain life or race life totals with Deathrite Shaman. If you want a good sideboard card, go with Council's Judgment. It's also good against Emrakuls and the like.
Now, Collected Company is interesting. I'm not sure if anyone else has tried it. It seems like it could be a neat card against Miracles to help rebuild. And the 4cc is hard to hit with Counterbalance...same reason I was looking at Retreat to Emeria.
EE isn't a bad idea. The card was a quick search for a spell I could use in that slot without too much thinking on my end. EE works well in that I can pay it "2" and still get 3 colors with Thalia on the board with the only caveat being having a NH or BoP out for the third color. Both are buyback able with E Witness. The only problem is EE takes out your stuff as well. The deck is mostly 2-3 drops so EE on 3 kills the big stuff like Knight, E Witness, or whatever. It's a thought and a card I'll probably test a bit online to see how I like it.
Council's Judgement works well in a Strict GW list to answer TNN and other things (Sneak and Show things?).
Other thoughts I had but forgot to write down:
Cavern has been really great. Wizard, human being the big named types.
Since I have a lot of 2 drops in my version, mana dorks are a bit odd. Having 2 lands and a mana dude on turn 2 is nice when you have Knight, but if you have a hand of odd 2 drops, it feels slightly clunky IMHO. I know Legacy is a diverse format but I feel like being mana inefficient with this deck in early turns sets it back too much without having that Black splash of discard, removal, and DRS to catch up. NH is good for Exalted, but I find it weird a lot. I may want to look at different 3 drops or maybe even some off the wall 1's to help smooth out the mana on early turns.
Forgot to say that I did give it a run, but Game 1 against Miracles still always feels bad. Need more card draw. Post board isn't terrible.
-Matt
I honestly haven't had enough games to say if I really love COCO in the deck or not. It's a spicy trick but I feel it's just too expensive TBH. I did like it costing 4 as a way to have a better game 1 vs Miracles. I've noticed a hole in their mana at the 4 drop, which is why I'm liking it. Only thing they run at 4 is Jace and Supreme Verdict, both of which have been moving slowly down in numbers as the meta shifts.
I saw and commented on the Retreat discussion earlier, and I like the white retreat for the same reason. It's abilities seem very good with the deck too. Most people are thinking the blue one for its synergy with Knight but I think we aren't a "comboy" deck and are a bit grindy in game one. Also anything with 3 CMC is prime to be ADecayed, where the 4 drop Retreat sneaks by :)
Also, I think Painful truths is fine, but costing 4 and not winning the game is harsh. I like Sylvan's repeatability, but I could easily see throwing 1-2 in to test and see where it takes us. What we're missing is always card draw/manipulation because sometimes, you just stall the fuck out and lose.
Yes, Sylvan Safekeeper is obviously amazing ;)
If you're going to stay in strict (for some reason), then just play CJ as your answer to TNN. It also hits Jace, Moat, etc. and a bunch of other stuff, so go for it. Black splash is REALLY good, so don't underestimate cards like Thoughtseize, and especially Zealous Persecution.
If you're also looking to beat TNN, you have Knights + mothers to sneak past TNN, or SoFI. That card is also good.
I could see splashing Red as the 4th colour for Slaughter Games, but I wouldn't play it as a land, I'd play, say, 1 BoP, 2-3 DRS, and 2-1 Noble Hierarch. Exalted is still important.
-Matt
Try out Collected Company. I started testing it solely because of Miracles.
To the other post you beat me to respond on, I may have to try Sword of Fire Ice. The times I have beaten TNN I was sneaking by a large exalted attacker every turn with a Mom and having Sylvan Safekeeper up as protection for Mom. I was sitting on 0-1 lands most of the time but was racing the TNN decent
My problem is the interaction between Teeg and CoCo. Ideally our anti-Miracles tech should be playable under the Teegfather. That said, if you have found a preboard trump for the match, lay it on me.
SoFI is definitely worth it.
I've been playing one Sylvan Library and I really want to cram two into the deck. You guys have me moderately convinced that I should give Safekeeper another look though.
Also, Council's Judgment is not hard to cast. I play in my GWb list and it's not a problem at all. So far it's the best answer that's also versatile in use. If you REALLY wanted to rock a Fog effect why no go with Dawnstrider or Spike Weaver? It's reusable and at least searchable with GSZ? I mean really, I'd rather have Tree of Redemption than Holy Light :(
Not sure what you'd play main other than the answers we already have Thalia, Teeg, etc do a decent bit of work. It's just not GREAT.
For things specifically useful in that match we could just go with things that destroy artifacts and enchantments and give ourselves a few more outs of the lock: Acidic Slime, Glissa Sunseeker, Krosan Grip, Reclamation Sage, Viridian Zealot, and Wickerbough Elder are probably the only relevant ones out there. Not sure if these are immensely better, but they are probably worth considering, especially the multi-use ones.
Nothing new but nevertheless:
- Sylvan Library #2
- Gaddock + Safekeeper
- Gaddock + Sword of Light and Shadow
- The sword is good with Dryad too, once Terminused it can be fetched back eot for a new attack.
These all work with Gaddock and fit well in the maindeck.
Edit: though I haven't played against the mentor miracles yet, so I can't say how good they are in that matchup.
Last edited by pettdan; 09-28-2015 at 09:07 AM.
Sorry in advance for the long, random, scatterbrained post... I had a lot of ideas (while at work) I wanted to capture for later this evening when I could get to testing. Also: if anyone has a gambit of decks online they want to play test with, I would love to jump in a Skype call/Google Hangout/whatever the cool kids use these days and test some matchups to tune a little more online w/ MTGO.
How good is Light/Shadow now a days with DRS running amok? Why should we run L/S over F/I? After looking at it and thinking it through Fire Ice seems better in that it does more right away with the burn damage. Against Miracles the creatures don't get killed like they used to with Verdict, they get Terminused down. My guess is that you meant the recurring graveyard creatures that get countered by the Top/CB lock which is valid, but I think F/I is still fine G1 in main as a way to get past/around Jace tMS.
For me the struggle is I don't run the SFM package because I was cutting down equipment and just sticking with a single Jitte since it is great. If I were to put another equip in with one of the Swords, I would think SFM should come back in for me. Maybe this can take the spot of the Voice that I wasn't super big on. Maybe cut 1 CoCo down for the sword, 1 Voice for SFM? But then I only have 1 SFM when I feel like I would want at LEAST 2. Creatures that are on the chopping block are:
- Courser
- Birds of Paradise (which if I am bringing in a SFM package seems worth keeping)
- Aven Mindcensor
- Scryb Ranger? I still like having this as a 1 of in the deck since it is good at blocking Delvers and can stretch mana light hands a bit which I like more and more the heavier I rely on Sylvan Safekeeper.
I have spoken a bit on how I like 4 CMC, but it is slightly clunky with CoCo. If CoCo continues to be underwhelming (I want to test it more against Miracles) then I could see removing them for other utility creatures with 4 CMC. What about Thrun? I know he is kinda beast at 4/4, Hexproof, uncounterable, and Regen for 4 seems real strong. Other uncounterable creatures have crossed my mind for my GW Modern build I have been thinking over. The main creature that comes to mind is Loxodon Smiter. I know in old builds a few years back I was running Rhox War Monk, but a 4/4 that is easier to cast, upside against Black decks, uncounterable seems pretty good to me.
Tree is a 4 CMC which is fine, tutorable with GSZ, can't block TNN, has "synergy" with Library, doesn't die to ADecay. Eh. Holy Light was more then just a "fog" effect but a way to kill off not only TNN but 1/1 tokens from Young Pyro, nonThreshold Nimble Mongoose, unflipped Delvers, Elves, Goblins, etc.
The more I type it the more it starts to make more sense that this could be what I wanted against Miracles that CoCo doesn't help. From my list a few posts back: Cut 3 CoCo, 1 Voice, 1 Aven Mindcensor. Add Thrun, 2 SFM, 1 Sword, 1 Loxodon Smiter. 2 large bodies (uncounterable to boot), 2 SFM to get Jitte/Sword. I lose the tricks that is CoCo which I wanted to really test a bit more before writing off, but I am thinking it might be better off in Modern where the format isn't as crazy fast. I lose the flying evasion of Mindcensor, who was fine in main to stop random things G1 like Tutors in Storm, GSZ in Green Matchups, stopping a pesky Goblin Matron from that guy who refuses to stop playing 1/1 red dudes, Fetch land hate which is strong with Wasteland, SFM out of the Stoneblade decks, Natural Order out of Elves, etc. The only problem was that Aven Mindcensor was a 1 of White creature which can't be fetched up with GSZ.
So since no one else is doing it I will be the first to share it in this thread for posterity, Dig Through Time is banned in Legacy!
With this change RUG might come back over Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show comes back over OmniTell. Both of those matchups I felt better in then against Omni. In S&S you have Karakas and other weird sideboard tech (oh how I missed sleeving up Gilded Drake). Against RUG Delver Wasteland is still amazing and Choke is an even better sideboard card. My graveyard hate seems better now that most people aren't killing their own graveyard with Delve, more value out of Snapcasters in blue decks making grave hate better in Mav.
Creature decks will be big again... HOORAY!
I'm still fairly new to the archetype, but have played a similar bant shell control deck for some time.
I'm running Sword of F&I and Jitte as my first two equipments. Sword of L&S was not added to the decklist in place of one of those two. Personally I wanted something to protect Gaddock vs Miracles and had a Safekeeper in the sideboard. I realized Sword of L&S had a broader application (see notes below) and was suitable for the maindeck and switched things around. At the same time I changed Mother of Runes #4 for a Sword of L&S. I don't like playing hordes of X/1's since they make Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution etc very good, so shaving down on one Mother in the main and one Safekeeper in the side to gain the below mentioned abilities in a card that is tutorable, that offers card advantage when tutored for and that offers potential repeated card advantage once a turn seems like a pretty good change to me. But in the end it depends on your strategy, decklist and meta. Mother of Runes can provide some good lockdowns, may play better with Cavern of Souls where you can force key creatures through counters and then protect them. Equipments may be better with Cradle, allowing you to play, equip and attack during the same turn. And there are probably a dozen other synergies that I'm not even thinking of right now..
Sword of L&S has the following applications:
- Equip a bird for infinite blocking of Marit Lage.
- Equip Gaddock for soft lock vs Miracles.
- Equip Dryad to force Terminus from Miracles, then fetch it back eot and equip again.
- Life gain vs Burn, Grixis, etc.
- Qasali Pridemage recursive artifact/enchantment destruction.
- Block and attack through Batterskull equipped on a germ token.
- Good vs D&T for winning a damage race and protecting key creatures.
- Life gain for extra card draw through Sylvan Library.
In addition to above I often have the feeling that if you can keep an equipment on board you're winning the fair matchups. May not be completely true, but it is almost always a very powerful card, turning any random creature into a good threat.
Yes, it loses some application vs Deathrite. But Deathrite is a prime StP target.
Last edited by pettdan; 09-28-2015 at 05:33 PM.
I also don't like the mass of 1/1s and try and avoid it when I can. I feel like if Miracles shifts towards running Monastery Mentor and using those tokens as the main win con, then Light and Shadow is a lot better. I think the protection from Black is useful to stop Abrupt Decay on a creature itself, making them waste it on the Sword instead.
Light & Shadow seems better against:
-Stoneblade (Germ tokens, Stoneforge, StP)
-Miracles (Monastery Mentor, recursion of creatures after counters, Karakas is still an issue as it can bounce Teeg which is why I REALLY like the Shroud ability of Safekeeper over Mom's pro color option as well as it being used potentially multiple times a turn)
-Random GB lists running ADecay or Maelstrom Pulse.
-Burn (Life gain could be relevant)
-Grindy creature matchups for Recurring life gain and creatures
-If I had a single misers Fauna Shaman to get creatures back.
-Odd non synergy with Mother of Runes in G1 where you need any other color protections :(
-As well as the ones you listed.
Fire & Ice seems better against:
-Jace/TNN Decks
-Young Pyro Decks.
-Delver
-Merfolk?
-Grindy creature matchups from the burn/card.
-Goblins?
-Elves???
-Infect
Depending on how the meta shifts now that DTT is banned, I am thinking you might be correct on the Light & Shadow over Fire & Ice. If Monastery Mentor Miracles becomes the new hotness (which I can very much see happening) then LS seems a lot stronger. Again it is purely a meta game call I think. Are you going to see more Miracles? Play Light/Shadow. More URxy Delver Variants? Play Fire/Ice. I don't know if the other Swords are worthy (Pro GB Feast/Famine: enemy discard, untap all lands. Pro RW War/Peace: dmg = cards in enemy hand, gain life = cards in your hand. Pro GU Body/Mind: 2/2 wolf, mill 10).
As I was looking through the equipment list, there is a weird thought of running Sword of the Meek since we run a lot of 1/1's (Mom, Safekeeper, Dryad Arbor, Scryb Ranger, Peacekeeper out the board?) but I don't think it has enough impact the way the true "Swords" do. The more I think of it though, Sword of the Meek seems insane with an Esper Thopter Foundry/Monastery Mentor token deck with Lingering Souls, Baleful Strix, Humility??? DOES IT WORK WITH HUMILITY!@?). The value of Sword with M.Mentor seems enough for me to want to brew around. Maverick doesn't have as many 1/1s to make it worth it, but other decks surely could.
TLDR: I'll probably use Light & Shadow for now and shift to Fire & Ice if the meta becomes heavy with URxy Delver based decks.
There is a lot of synergy between Humility, Mentor, Thopter Foundry, Sword of the Meek and other equipments, interesting to brew with but probably not for a Maverick list (as you're already saying). And with Omnishow being one of the main decks to beat I wasn't really thrilled to play Humility. But with DTT ban it may seem better again.
Also note that I wasn't picking Sword of F&I over L&S, but next to it.
Maverick seems it will be good again post DTT ban. I have always felt in every game I have played until the resolved a dig. Without dig I think the deck just sticks to it's roots. Disrupt and pressure .
Also fwiw I have found L&S to be preferable because I aggressively use library as draw and never felt the need for F&I.
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