[Deck] Death and Taxes

[redtwister]

@Koke_MTG
No need to apologize. You should try reading my Spanish

I am asking about Phyrexian Revoker because in the U.S. meta, it is no longer considered mandatory in the main deck, or maybe is a 1-of, especially in the Vryn Wingmare builds for WW or in the Wg build because of Qasali Pridemage, especially as BUG Delver and Elves are less present and Wingmare does more work against Miracles.

My build is looking like this at the moment:
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Serra Avenger
3 Vryn Wingmare
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Aven Mindcensor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

9 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Cavern of Souls

SIDEBOARD:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Council's Judgment
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Seal of Cleansing
1 Containment Priest
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
2 Cataclysm
2 Pithing Needle
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Rest in Peace

Oblivion Ring is better than Council's Judgment against OmniTell and is easier to cast, so I like the split.

2 Pithing Needle because I have no Phyrexian Revoker. Maybe I am too aggressive main and should be using Phyrexian Revoker... not sure.

Containment Priest against all of the creature combo decks, but with Elves seeing less play, I went with one.

Sword of Light and Shadow is an experiment. Some others are using Sword of War and Peace, but I like the lifegain and getting my creatures back to hand from the graveyard. That mitigates our lack of CA.

Seal of Cleansing can sit on the field until I need it, instead of waiting in hand and can be searched.

I'm torn about Chalice of the Void because its a great card, but it also is a problem with Vial and StP and Mom. I feel like that is a lot of our deck.

[Curby]

Is that the right list? You say you have no Revokers in the notes, but the list has 2. Also the list has only 21 land. Are those two Revokers supposed to be land?

Re: Chalice, doubling down on Cavern helps with Mom, Vial drops before Chalice does, and you can board out StP anyway against a lot of decks where you want Chalice. I can't run it because I Teeg, but have suggested it (I think I have?) on Salvation. Give it a try!

[redtwister]

@kirbysdl
Fixed the lands.

Didn't say I didn't run any; I said a lot of the other U.S. players seem to be running 0-1 and asked if that was becoming common in Spain/Europe. I still see a lot of decks where I want it in the main in my local meta, so I keep two, even with 3 Vryn Wingmare.

Interesting idea on double Cavern with Chalice of the Void. That could work out, though it adds some risk with the mana. Koke_MTG isn't running 2x Cavern of Souls, though, so I was curious how that was working out for him.

Aven Mindcensor as a 1-of is a test, btw. There are matches where it is good, but rarely worth more than 1-2 spots, so I figured as a 1-of, it adds another layer of soft lockdown.

[Koke_MTG]

Lately I am thinking about playing a second Cavern of Souls to avoid Chalice of the Void effect for Mother of Runes, replacing Horizon Canopy's singleton. But I am concerned about the number of white sources in my manabase, because I consider that 13 is a poor number to play some creatures without Aether Vial like Serra Avenger or Flickerwisp. I think playing under 14 is a mistake.

[hill_giant]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...ent-2015-09-28

Dig through time is gone. With omni down, I'm feeling much better about imperial taxes.

[mrjumbo03]

^I see a resurgence of Sneak and Show again. It regains its title of "Best Mindless Combo Deck" of the format from the grip of Omni. Plus a lot of those players would want something to do with their Show and Tells right? This should bode well for us DnT folk.

[iatee]

the green splash version is now harder to justify as teeg is just worse and worse - doesn't save you from mentor, no more dtt to worry about

[mishima_kazuya]

I am excited to not have to worry about playing against mono-removal + Dig Through Time.

[mrjumbo03]

the green splash version is now harder to justify as teeg is just worse and worse - doesn't save you from mentor, no more dtt to worry about

Also, for those who ran Pridemages, it also gets worse because of the loss of Omni. The prime targets now would be Top and Sneak Attack, both of which are handled better by Revoker.

[Pans-Advocate]

So, someone critique this reasoning on the effects of DTT's ban on D&T going forward:

-No more Canonist maindeck (mainly because Omni-Tell is its main target and will not be seen as often)
-More Revokers (to combat return of Sneak Attacks, Lilianas)
-Spirit of the Labyrinth is potentially relevant again
-More honest grindy games against blue decks with creatures means fliers are probably a little better

Questions:

-Is Vryn Wingmare better or worse now? How many is right? (I'm on 0 right now, to make room for Revokers and Spirits.)
-Which sideboard cards gain the most value? (I'm considering going up to 3 RIP and I think Mirran Crusader is probably better now too. Reasoning: BGx Goyf decks got much better)

[iatee]

Spirit is worse not better, as all DTT-based decks were filled w/ non-DTT cantrips.

[iatee]

Containment Priest might be better, with Sneak (presumably) coming back and Elves also getting a relative positioning boost. She can probably merit one of the spots taken by an anti-Omni card for most people.

[AsmodeusDM]

Reasoning: BGx Goyf decks got much better)

Agree with this. With DTT not available to refill; any BG jund-like deck trying to just trade 1 for 1 is a lot more appealing. Hence uptick on Shardless BUG and similar attrition decks.

Yeah I want mirran crusader back in the 75 as well... maybe even Wilt-Leaf Liege!

[Koke_MTG]

I have spent some time this evening to build another mono-white D&T list over paper and without testing yet. I agree with your thoughts about the new metagame after DTT ban so here is the board I will test next weeks:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Rest in Peace

With the end of the DTT era I will finish the CotV era by the moment.

At the maindeck I have returned to the full set of Phyrexian Revoker reducing to 3 the number of Vryn Wingmare and keeping the 2 Mirran Crusader obviously.

[groombug]

I have spent some time this evening to build another mono-white D&T list over paper and without testing yet. I agree with your thoughts about the new metagame after DTT ban so here is the board I will test next weeks:

2 x Council's Judgment
2 x Cataclysm
2 x Ratchet Bomb
1 x Pithing Needle
1 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Containment Priest
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
3 x Rest in Peace

With the end of the DTT era I will finish the CotV era by the moment.

At the maindeck I have returned to the full set of Phyrexian Revoker reducing to 3 the number of Vryn Wingmare and keeping the 2 Mirran Crusader obviously.

I ended up with a similar SB as yours, but kept some pre-ban parts.

+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Ethersworn, +1 Sword of War and Peace
-2 Ratchet Bomb, -1 Mirran Crusader

I forgot about Ratchet Bomb.

[redtwister]

Blew up my universe!!! Oh well, at least I know what to adjust for.

Also, tinkering with this variant of RW DnT, but I'm not not calling it Imperial because I'm running Prophetic Flamespeaker instead of Imperial Recruiter. Feel like possibly seeing two extra cards a turn is really good. Maybe too hard to do in Legacy?

Lands 23:
1x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
2x Plateau
3x Plains
3x Flooded Strand
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port

Creatures 26:
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Flickerwisp
3x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Prophetic Flamespeaker
3x Magus of the Moon
1x Mirran Crusader

Non-creature spells 11:
4x Æther Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Batterskull
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

Sideboard:
3x Sudden Demise
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Circle of Protection: Red
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb

[Barook]

@redtwister: Sure, it's a human for Cavern, but how do you plan to hit double red reliably to cast it if you don't have a Vial @3?

[redtwister]

@redtwister: Sure, it's a human for Cavern, but how do you plan to hit double red reliably to cast it if you don't have a Vial @3?

Magus of the Moon... I know, I know. It's really sketchy, but I really want to give it a shot. It really pokes holes in a lot of the hate for us. I'm not saying I have the mana base down, or that you wouldn't be better off with Imperial Recruiter, but I'm saying I'm gonna try it out.

ps: I am sure this was discussed when Imperial Taxes was built by Bahra, but the searching on the threads is crappy, so I'm not finding Prophetic Flamespeaker.

[iatee]

I thought about trying flamespeaker and maybe there's a deck for it, but I think the bigger problem is that we often don't want to be hardcasting multiple spells a turn and that's what flamespeaker pushes you towards. You can't vial in a flamespeaker hit, and you often need your mana for ports, etc.

[iatee]

But speaking of insanely greedy mana - I have been trying to figure out a build that could include a one of kiki/village bell ringer. Influenced by this guy's crazy build: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8438&d=248450&f=LE.

Vial at 3 + recruiter EOT + 2RRR open = instantly win anytime you topdeck a recruiter. Obviously 2RRR is hard-to-impossible w/ this deck, but there is potential in some sort of similar W/R vial deck.