All B/R update speculation.

[nedleeds]

But what happens with Grixis/BURg decks? It felt like DTT was the glue that held those decks together. Maybe i should start playing something else than bad control decks. Too bad.

Yeah those entire color combinations are just unplayable. Shame. What deck could anybody possibly build with U/b/r using the Legacy card pool without Dig Through Time?

[rlesko]

Just from reading each thread and how everyone is reacting to the news I've figured out that no one knows anything about this format at all. Apparently BUG, RUG, & Miracles are each the new top dog of the format. Also storm crushes Delver.

See below

Which version of Delver are you crushing? The one full of hand disruption and counters, the one with Stifle and one mana counters or the one with a clock, counters and a 4/4 Lifelinker?

[Dice_Box]

Storm puts up a fight against Delver, but I don't agree it crushes it. It's not like we are talking about Nic Fit, Goblins or Elves where they often are like helpless babe's in the woods. Crush, DnT crushes Sneak and Show, Elves crushes DnT, Lands crushes Delver (most of the time). The matches are slanted badly in one direction. I don't feel that was about Storm v Delver. Not when they have a good clock they can back up with disrupting effects and sideboard answers.

[sea]

i dunno what delver he was referring to, but if youre getting crushed by storm with rug youre doing something wrong.

[Stevestamopz]

- black vise unbanned
- dig gone
- modo events going halfway back to normal
- water found on mars

Todaywasagoodday.gif

[Barook]

Shiet, anybody rocking DTT in general had to know. Didn't it feel dirty to resolve that card? It's Just Not Right.

Yes, but it felt dirty in a good way. Kinda like how ya feel when watching porn.

There's a reason for all the dick jokes, I guess.

[L10]

Black Vise getting unbanned literally made my day. The chance of having double Black Vise on turn 1 with Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors is 4.13%, and 5.12% with Mox Diamonds. In other words, there is a chance.

[Megadeus]

As a person who has had a non zero amount of success with storm, it doesn't crush delver, but I don't think it's a horrible match up by any means. I'll take delver over MUD almost any day

[rlesko]

As a person who has had a non zero amount of success with storm, it doesn't crush delver, but I don't think it's a horrible match up by any means. I'll take delver over MUD almost any day

I don't think anyone here is saying delver crushes storm. There was one guy who was saying the opposite, which is simply not true, and that was the point others and I took issue with.

[Jamaican Zombie Legend]

The DTT ban is nice, but I really don't think anything good will come of Black Vise entering the format. Just an utterly miserable card to play against; doesn't make sense to get rid of one (Dig) and replace it with another.

I guess the silver lining is that Vise is mostly shit and is unlikely to see a whole lot of play.

Edit: Derp, forgot semicolon.

[nevilshute]

Grinding Station ANT has a clearly favored position vs non-Deathrite Shaman Delver decks in my experience. Playing the deck vs Canadian feels quite good, though "crush" is clearly hyperbole. Against Grixis Delver (pre-ban) even with deathrites it still felt like a very decent matchup to me. BUG-delver of 13/14 isn't a ton of fun to face for Storm, but not a horrible matchup neither but one that feels even-to-unfavored for Grinding Station ANT.

[Crimhead]

Black Vise getting unbanned literally made my day. The chance of having double Black Vise on turn 1 with Ancient Tomb or City of Traitors is 4.13%, and 5.12% with Mox Diamonds. In other words, there is a chance.

I didn't check your math - did you account for needed two lands with the Mox hand - if so, how many lands are you assuming are in this deck? If this is a MUD/Stacks list with Welder, Petal might be in there too.

Of course this opener is much weaker on the play and is weak against FOW.

I've lost to a turn one Emrakul playing against Sneak Show, so I think this is okay.

[Zombie]

The DTT ban is nice, but I really don't think anything good will come of Black Vise entering the format. Just an utterly miserable card to play against; doesn't make sense to get rid of one (Dig) and replace it with another.

I guess the silver lining is that Vise is mostly shit and is unlikely to see a whole lot of play.

Edit: Derp, forgot semicolon.

Agreed. The scenarios for Vise are:

1. It does nothing, so why unban it from a viable card pool and gameplay experience POV.
2. It does something, in which case it will ruin games and punish clunky keeps that a good player might be able to navigate into a good position just because those hands won't flow as well.
3. We all love Delver, do we need #5-8?

Basically, the reasons for unbanning Vise are a shorter banlist and just because, not any actual expectation of benefit to the format. It's Fun EV is starkly negative.

[Lemnear]

Agreed. The scenarios for Vise are:

1. It does nothing, so why unban it from a viable card pool and gameplay experience POV.
2. It does something, in which case it will ruin games and punish clunky keeps that a good player might be able to navigate into a good position just because those hands won't flow as well.
3. We all love Delver, do we need #5-8?

Basically, the reasons for unbanning Vise are a shorter banlist and just because, not any actual expectation of benefit to the format. It's Fun EV is starkly negative.

Totally wrong. The reason for Black Vises unban is the usual "prisoner exchange" and it not being a potential combo card

[Sloshthedark]

Which version of Delver are you crushing? The one full of hand disruption and counters, the one with Stifle and one mana counters or the one with a clock, counters and a 4/4 Lifelinker?

The one with lifelinker...

[Zombie]

Totally wrong. The reason for Black Vises unban is the usual "prisoner exchange" and it not being a potential combo card

Uh, I said the reason was a shorter ban list. It's the motive behind their prisoner exchange program, to keep the line count as low as possible.

[Blastoderm]

Storm doesn't crush Delver at all?

Let me clarify. Most Delver players are mouthbreathing mongoloids who's results are carried by herpderp 3/2 flying for U with free spells (see: SCG circuit) (also see: the 7-0 BUG Delver player who tried to Pithing Needle and Stifle LED in the same game). So yes, I am correct in saying that Storm crushes 70%+ of Delver players. I do agree that Delver in the hands of a good player can be hard though.

[Spam]

Stifle on LED... Can you even make that play with a straight face?

[Blastoderm]

Stifle on LED... Can you even make that play with a straight face?

He pithing needled LED. Storm player goes off the turn after. Judge had to come over and explain that Needle doesn't do anything vs LED.....so he casts Stifle.

[Julian23]

Reminds me of the guy who first tried to Ancient Grudge a Sphinx of the Steel Wind; judge comes over and explains how protection works. Guy nods, then casts Krosan Grip on it. Game Loss.

Or the guy who was so tricky, he cast Fire//Ice on LED in the opponent's upkeep. Fun fact: unlike Lotus, LED doesn't tap to activate.