[Primer] Elves!

[locksleysrobin]

You seem to have forgotten to mention that the similar deck just happens to be elves.

Yeah... I used to be lucky enough to never have to play the mirror at fairfax then a whole slew of people built the deck over the last year
There was more diversity over the summer with a couple of the locals having gone back to college since then. It has pretty consistently been combo heavy for a long time though, the combo decks just varied more than they currently do.

[MD.Ghost]

DTT got crushed - Nice!
---------

Before DTT bites the Dust i decided to give my old love (Elves) a try and brought the deck to a local tournament last sunday.

As many, i hated the DTT era and played with a couple of other decks during the last months. Even with DTT our local meta loses all the OmniShow.decs and after GP Lille we had many Aggro Loam Players - besides Miracle, Grixis, MUD, ANT and all the other stuff which lurking around in the depths of the format.

I liked the fresh ideas of lightning bebbi and thought about the cut of Natural Order - in the past i only played 3 of them with 1 Packmaster (overall a more grindy build with pendelhaven, only 3 heritage etc.) , because we have some good Miracle Players here and the matchup need some attention..

Between Counterbalance, Chalice and more anoying Midrange-Stuff (PFire, Liliana etc.) i decided to Brew around with a couple of new ideas. Before the tournament i only had a few testgames, but lucky or not i won enough to feel good for the real competitive run.

What i liked at lightning bebbi "Drain Elves" build are the inclusion of Dwynen's Elite and Shaman of the Pack. Afterall even Cavern of Souls make sense (Counterbalance/Chalice/Black for Shaman), but i only tried 2 of them because i feared situations were i am unable to cast Symbiote, Sideboard-Spells etc. - sadly Cavern is also no best friend with Quirion Ranger - in one test game i managed to resolve Cavern "of Beast" to throw in a hardcasted Hoof for the win^^

What i dislike was the inclusion of "CoCo" - in modern Collected Company seems fine, because you will hit some additional lords (Elvish Archdruid etc.) but in a legacy build you can also end with: 4 Mana for only two 1/1 dudes...it may be work against Miracle eoT but i missed some power here.

Without Natural Oder i gained some space and it was clear that the "Aggro Plan" can be a real thing because Shaman of the Pack also supports this line of game plan. In addition to 1 Hoof and 2 Shaman of the Pack as win conditions i included 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as 4drops. The Lieges will immediately impact the board, are hard to kill and are nice enough if you grind against PFire, Liliana etc. All the stuff works well together, Dwynen's Elite is clearly underestimated (supports: Symbiote, Heritage, Cradle, Shaman, WLL, Therapy), Cavern (and Glimpse) even get better if your win.cons aren't spells. It was hard to get all the stuff into a 60 card shell, but i also wanted one more element as a maindeck weapon: Without my beloved Ruric and Natural Order it was time for Mr.Teeg again. The Kithkin was my 61 card but i grew up in the combo hell of berlin, so i always have Storm on the radar. Teeg Game 1 is simply "GG" and for me he is a clear choice without Natural Order. The little advisor come also with a FoW Protection for any Glimpse Chain and can benefit from Liege (and even Cavern if needed).

So finally the brew looked like this:

4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Ranger
2 Shaman of the Pack
2 Dwynen's Elite
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

Sideboard:
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Wren's Run Packmaster

It was Prerelease-Weekend but after all 40 Players take part in the tournament.

My Matchups:
R1 vs Esperblade 2:0
R2 vs Sneak Show 2:1
R3 vs MUD 1:2
R4 vs Tin Fins 0:2
R5 vs UR Delver 2:0
R6 vs ANT 2:1

Finally i conquered the 6th place (top8 was: Miracle, BUG Delver, MUD, Sneak Show, Tin Fins, Elves, Aggro Loam, Sylvan Plug) - afterall i got some of the worst matchups and had to consider to take more mulligans (especially with the new rule) in all games i lost.

What worked well: As i mentioned above Dwynen's Elite is a nice Card and i really start to like it. Most games i won, i drained my opponents to death via Shaman of the Pack. Some games he was simply a finisher after a Glimpse Chain, stole the last points after some attack steps or got bounced with Symbiote. Gaddock Teeg won me a Game against Sneak Show and against ANT. Against Storm i sadly lost the die roll and lost one turn before i can cast him, but my opponent didn't expected this tech and i get him Game 2. What needs to be more tested: Cavern was sometimes really good (casting through chalice), but i also lost my Game 1 against ANT because i was unable to fetch (and my opponent hold his 2 back - but don't know that this was the key) so my Deathrite can't cast Zenith Turn 2 for GG (my opponent goes of in his 3rd turn) - in this case, Cavern was the wrong land - 2 was definite a better number than 3 but maybe it is also right to cut them completly and play a 3rd Bayou (with Shaman of the Pack in mind) and another Fetch. Liege sometimes buffed the whole team for critical damage and shortens the clock against combo (nice with teeg around) without Swords to Plowshards your opponents will have a hard time to remove it and/or other of your creatures.

Most opponents fear the common Natural Order tech and together with the few test games i faced situations when the NO-Plan would have meet Cabal Therapy Calls, Flusterstorms, Spell Pierces or Grafdigger's Cage etc. I think most Show&Tell Players will now switch back to Sneak Show, so i feel we will see also more Containment Priest the upcoming months. As some players already mentioned, Natural Order isn't the best Spell against Miracle (which will be back in full force now as the lonely king of the format). As we already discussed, a build without Natural Order will lose some percentage of its turn 2 or 3 wins - but a real magic game isn't a goldfish, if your opponent is able to get some disruption going it isn't a problem to pack some more unexpected grindy cards.

In the future i can see to switch the 2 Extractions and 1 Jitte with a 2nd Sage, 1 Null Rod (or 2 Choke/KGrip) and 1 Libary against Miracle - the maindeck already contains good cards for the matchup so i don't have to fear it.

[Echelon]

DTT got crushed - Nice!
---------


Without Natural Oder i gained some space and it was clear that the "Aggro Plan" can be a real thing because Shaman of the Pack also supports this line of game plan. In addition to 1 Hoof and 2 Shaman of the Pack as win conditions i included 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege as 4drops. The Lieges will immediately impact the board, are hard to kill and are nice enough if you grind against PFire, Liliana etc. All the stuff works well together, Dwynen's Elite is clearly underestimated (supports: Symbiote, Heritage, Cradle, Shaman, WLL, Therapy), Cavern (and Glimpse) even get better if your win.cons aren't spells. It was hard to get all the stuff into a 60 card shell, but i also wanted one more element as a maindeck weapon: Without my beloved Ruric and Natural Order it was time for Mr.Teeg again. The Kithkin was my 61 card but i grew up in the combo hell of berlin, so i always have Storm on the radar. Teeg Game 1 is simply "GG" and for me he is a clear choice without Natural Order. The little advisor come also with a FoW Protection for any Glimpse Chain and can benefit from Liege (and even Cavern if needed).

So finally the brew looked like this:

Observation: If you were to drop the Craterhoof as win-con, you would be able to drop the 4 Cradles in favor of 4 more elves. They could make place for more business stuff.

As far as the rest of your manabase is concerned - I'd dump the 2 Caverns and put in an extra fetchland. 14 non-Cradle/Arbor land is perfectly fine, you don't need a 15th. If you didn't need Teeg, I'd say cut the Savannah for another fetchland. Gives you another slot to work with.

[Zombie]

My instinct would be to cut the Savannah and a Cradle for a third Cavern and a ninth fetch.

[haganbmj]

I've been playing at Comics and Gamings for almost two years now and Mondays at Fairfax usually have 8-16 people depending on the week. I will warn you, there are a lot of people playing very similar decks. Their sister store in Gainesville plays Legacy on Tuesdays and there are a couple other stores not too too far that play Legacy on different days. My name is Jason (people also call me Duffy so if you ask the employees using either name they'll know) and I'm there most Mondays if you have any questions that I don't respond to here.

Missed this is the excitement of a Dig-less world (I think my local store is going to try and put as many Digs on camera this week as possible just to laugh at it).
Thanks for the info Jason, I messaged the guys at Comics/Gaming (Fairfax) and it looks like you guys have a decent legacy crowd of regulars, I'll look forward to disrupting the peace. I'll have to try and spot you out to say Hi to get some more information about the other legacy events - I'm hoping to make it out this coming Monday.

It's funny hearing you say the store is pretty combo heavy, mine has always been chalice heavy.

[locksleysrobin]

Missed this is the excitement of a Dig-less world (I think my local store is going to try and put as many Digs on camera this week as possible just to laugh at it).
Thanks for the info Jason, I messaged the guys at Comics/Gaming (Fairfax) and it looks like you guys have a decent legacy crowd of regulars, I'll look forward to disrupting the peace. I'll have to try and spot you out to say Hi to get some more information about the other legacy events - I'm hoping to make it out this coming Monday.

It's funny hearing you say the store is pretty combo heavy, mine has always been chalice heavy.

Of the people that play at the store frequently, not necessarily able to make it Mondays though, we have 4 people that own Elves, 3 people that own storm, 4 people that own omnitell (obviously changing), 4 people that own dredge, 2 people that own reanimator, and a food chain player. Now there is quite of redundancy in who owns the aforementioned decks so they aren't all played every week (also changes with people's ability to attend) but it still is quite a few unfair decks between the regulars.

[haganbmj]

Of the people that play at the store frequently, not necessarily able to make it Mondays though, we have 4 people that own Elves, 3 people that own storm, 4 people that own omnitell (obviously changing), 4 people that own dredge, 2 people that own reanimator, and a food chain player. Now there is quite of redundancy in who owns the aforementioned decks so they aren't all played every week (also changes with people's ability to attend) but it still is quite a few unfair decks between the regulars.

Yep sounds like the perfect store for mainboard chalice, rest in peace, spirit of the labyrinth, and probably containment priest.
4 Dredge players... wow, that might actually be more players on dredge than we've had in my area total across the last couple years (60+ players I can think of).

[locksleysrobin]

Yep sounds like the perfect store for mainboard chalice, rest in peace, spirit of the labyrinth, and probably containment priest.
4 Dredge players... wow, that might actually be more players on dredge than we've had in my area total across the last couple years (60+ players I can think of).

Fortunately it isn't 4 dredge players, just 4 people that own dredge. One of them can't make mondays with any regularity, one of them always plays storm, one of them always plays shardless bug, and the other switches between storm and dredge.

[kuroko16]

Guys can i ask you an advice?

After ban of Dig i decide to play Elves at Ovino Tournament in Italy this week.

I.m noob player of elves. First tournament with this deck. You think is more easy the shaman of the pack version or regular version with natural order?

Thanks

[resum]

Guys can i ask you an advice?

After ban of Dig i decide to play Elves at Ovino Tournament in Italy this week.

I.m noob player of elves. First tournament with this deck. You think is more easy the shaman of the pack version or regular version with natural order?

Thanks

I've never played the shaman version for real, but i'd think the NO version is easier to play since it's easier to win without glimpse chaining.

[haganbmj]

Guys can i ask you an advice?

After ban of Dig i decide to play Elves at Ovino Tournament in Italy this week.

I.m noob player of elves. First tournament with this deck. You think is more easy the shaman of the pack version or regular version with natural order?

Thanks

Natural Order probably gives you more "oops I win" draws.

[Lemnear]

Natural Order probably gives you more "oops I win" draws.

Thats not the point: Shaman does not interact fast enough/meaningful with combo, nor does Shaman present a threat in the face of sweepers. What do people expect? That they drain 7+ life against Terminus or/and get to attack with 5+ creatures?

[MD.Ghost]

Thats not the point: Shaman does not interact fast enough/meaningful with combo, nor does Shaman present a threat in the face of sweepers. What do people expect? That they drain 7+ life against Terminus or/and get to attack with 5+ creatures?

In a build with Shaman you should clearly play a Gaddock Teeg - in this Case you can interact way better with Storm Game 1 (because resolving a Teeg or Zenith Turn 2 is much easier than a combo move - and most NO builds even play without Ruric main) - Teeg simply wins and can even catch a Sneak Attack (the new/old Show&Tell.dec) offguard. Speed up the plan vs combo is never the right call, because unless the old glasscanon builds with Pact^^ most combo decks should be faster than elves or can disrupt (Counter/Discard) them easy enough Game 1. The common Sidetech is Discard, which is ok and can buy some time but will also tend to a slower elves combo (you simply beat most oft the time with all the 1/1 dorks).

Terminus itself isn't the only "deck" - and as others already pointed out - Natural Order itself isn't very good against Miracle (the terminus.dec you mean) especially if we see Containment Priest in the future (thanks to Sneak&Show+Elves). I would gladly attack with a 3/2 Elf, which can also drain some live if 1-2 other dudes are around against Miracle, because 3 damage per round is fine enough - it feels much better than holding a useless hoof, cradle, no or various 1mana creatures in hand vs Counterbalance etc. - i agree with you that Shaman itself isn't "the answer" against Miracle, but it will work in some cases.

-------
Conclusion: NO Elves will remain the more common build, especially because it sometimes smash the "i win"Button thanks to NO+Hoof(or Prog.) vs fair decks - but all other ideas around Shaman of the Pack and other stuff are simply not explored enough to dismiss them all and yell out "garbage!"

[EEk1TwEEk]

Conclusion: NO Elves will remain the more common build, especially because it sometimes smash the "i win"Button thanks to NO+Hoof(or Prog.) vs fair decks - but all other ideas around Shaman of the Pack and other stuff are simply not explored enough to dismiss them all and yell out "garbage!"

Are you comparing combo elves with drain eves? Are you serious? (:
This was just a fun build which is, although, is extremely good against miracles. But what about other matches? I am totally sure, that this list will be totally overwhelmed by Jund, it's too slow against burn, ANT, TES and MUD.

btw i am making drain elves to see how it plays in our metagame.

[Lemnear]

Are you comparing combo elves with drain eves? Are you serious? (:
This was just a fun build which is, although, is extremely good against miracles. But what about other matches? I am totally sure, that this list will be totally overwhelmed by Jund, it's too slow against burn, ANT, TES and MUD.

btw i am making drain elves to see how it plays in our metagame.

Combo decks like Storm are not neccessarily your metric, but something to have in mind and fight with the sideboard. The rant about Drain Elves roots on it claimed good in a metagame dominated by Miracles and Combo decks which I have to call ballsy. Now the deck has to compete with SneakShow, Lands, Miracles and the expected return of Stifle/Hymn/Wasteland for what its worth and I'm unsure if that's a soooooo significant improvement of the decks positioning in the metagame.

[danyul]

I played the Drain build for a handful of games and then took it to a weekly event. Every time I cast Collected Company, I would have won the game if it were a Natural Order. Instead I got a couple 1/1s. Then I drew more 1/1s and died because my 4cmc spells made 1/1s instead of +X/+X Hoofs. I definitely didn't test it properly but it didn't take too long for me to realize that the Drain build isn't for me.

I might still find a spot for a single Shaman of the Pack. Best of luck to all of you testing the Drain list though.

[Julian23]

Back on Magic Online, currently 7-1 with this. Also 3-0'ed (6-0 in games) the "Daily Event" even though I got some favorable matchups in 2x Merfolk and Grixis Delver.

[Manroe]

Back on Magic Online, currently 7-1 with this. Also 3-0'ed (6-0 in games) the "Daily Event" even though I got some favorable matchups in 2x Merfolk and Grixis Delver.

Pretty close to what I'm playing. If you were going to make room for 1 shaman of the pack, what would you cut and why?
How has Library been for you?

[Lemnear]

Pretty close to what I'm playing. If you were going to make room for 1 shaman of the pack, what would you cut and why?
How has Library been for you?

Why would you play Shaman of the Pack at all? If you have the board full of creatures and/or Cradle, Hoof/NO/GSZ wins immediately unlike Shaman of the pack. Neither card however adresses issues with a cleared board.

[Manroe]

Why would you play Shaman of the Pack at all? If you have the board full of creatures and/or Cradle, Hoof/NO/GSZ wins immediately unlike Shaman of the pack. Neither card however adresses issues with a cleared board.

I just like the extra reach it provides. I'll give an example I had from the other day.
I'm playing against infect who likely has force of will and has an inkmoth nexus and a trop in play, and I had run out of cards on my glimpse chain. I believe I was sitting at 11 mana. I have two lands, a nat order and a GSZ in my hand. I took the route of GSZ for Shaman, forcing him to die to shaman -> bounce with symbiote -> shaman, or counter it and I still have Nat Order. Just a little extra versatility that I like is all.