If you're gonna go on full lockdown with Vise as one of your wincons, I would suggest abusing Smokestacks.
Basically the progression of the game will be (based on my page 68 list)
- Either you start with Chalice/Sphere/Revoker or tapped Cloudposts (which is suboptimal). With Vise, you can use one of your non-sol land to cast it.
- With Chalice/Sphere, you either try to follow that up with Tangle Wire/Lodestone Golem or more Sphere (or Metamorph) given that you didn't miss a land stop.
- Apply threat or go for the beats.
The problem with Vise is that once it skips phase one, and there's a Chalice (@1) online, it's gonna be hard to get it on the field. Alternatively you can Forgemaster it onto the field (which is suboptimal) or sacrifice your Chalice to Forgemaster. You can only afford to do the latter if you've already spammed the board with resistors. The problem with that is its next to impossible to cast Forgemaster when you've flooded the board with resistors.
With Vise and Smokestack, you can have Smokestack be online while your resistors are slowing your opponent down. Unlike Forgemaster, Smokestack also eats up your opponent's board, making your resistors faster. Eventually, you can sac your Chalice and cast Vise while your opponent has minimal lands and is softlocked by resistors.
The problem with softlock, your opponent can break away from it. As turns go, if you don't have pressure, it's counter productive. With Vise, it puts your opponent on a clock while you have them on a softlock. It's a plus if you get Smokestack online.
What does everyone thing about this?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forumsOriginally Posted by Kyle
Hmmm I guess it's going to be difficult for MUD to use Black Vise because of Chalice. If you're going for this plan you're sure going to need not just 1 of 2 Black Vise. I guess that makes it difficult to get this thing working with chalice even with Cavern-Welder recurring schemes.
I'd say it's either Chalice or Black Vise.
All and all I guess this is a very sad day for MUD. I think we'll see a lot of Maverick, Jund, Elves and Lands decks flying around. Not really our favorite matchups
Black Vise seems a lot more exciting for Delver, Burn, etc, but I'd be interested in seeing what Vise-Stax brews people come up with.
You might be right, but I'm gonna wait to see how everything shakes out. The Dig ban was definitely a hit to a lot of the decks we prey on, but Miracles, Delver, and decks with 1 CMC spells will still be a thing. Ugin's the only amazing new MUD card that's been printed in the past few years and the deck has persisted; I doubt the Dig ban will be a crippling blow to us.All and all I guess this is a very sad day for MUD. I think we'll see a lot of Maverick, Jund, Elves and Lands decks flying around. Not really our favorite matchups
Having four Black Vises has the same chance in our starting hand as Chalice. Its definitely worth a try, I think I might go try that this Friday... If I find them.
This won't amount to much , it's cute … I might check in later and play this more stax with Tangle Wire but I want feedback . Black Vise has to go in, Goblin Welder will protect it and other artifacts, Chalice has to come out, Voltaic Key can go in, Top can go in but I prefer Portal . This is the list I came up with . Factory is a bit random but I want sac outlets to Forgemaster.
The list I am playing tomorrow :
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
3 Wasteland
4 Great Furnace
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Gemstone Caverns
3 Cavern Of Souls
4 Goblin Welder
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Metalworker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sundering Titan
4 Trinisphere
1 Staff Of Domination
2 Coercive Portal
4 Black Vise
1 Voltaic Key
4 Grim Monolith
@(nameless one), I think you hit the nail on the head with your analysis. Thank you. For me, the inclusion of Black Vise is a natural transition from my Stax list couple pages before, except now I get to diversify my win-con with Lodestone Golem, Black Vise, Mishra Factories, and Revokers. For my list, I think I want to have Lodestone Golems and Smokestack as my top-end spells, and remove the Abyss. I still think Razormane Masticore has enough utility in the sideboard as a 2-of though, especially if I decide to keep Ghost Town in my list. I think the combination of Winter Orb, Tangle Wire, Crucible of Worlds, Smokestacks, Sphere of Resistance, and Ensnaring Bridge (?) can prove to be a pretty hard lock.
@Post-Dig, Rant
I for one am VERY happy that DTT is now banned. While it does not favor our deck, it was warping the format in the direction I didn't like. I honestly care more about the health of this format than the impact, however negative, it may have in our deck. It was pushing out way too many archetypes. It was basically turning the format into DTT decks vs. decks that can shove Chalice into their 60 (Merfolk, MUD, Dump Truck) vs. decks that can deal with both (Lands). Heck, just for kicks, I went 3-1 (losing to Lands) at my locals three weeks ago with my Goblins deck by replacing Tarfires with Chalices, just because Chalices were just that good against decks that functions off of 12-16 cantrips. Chalices basically became just as good as Blood Moon that can be used universally, while the DTT decks were pushing out deck who can't shove Chalices in their 60, and I had an issue with that. That is not what I consider to be a healthy format. My friend George Fletes top 8ed at the last Legacy Champs, and even he felt ambivalent about the power level of Chalice, because it literally just won him games whenever it resolved, which he did by going 10-0, even though that he didn't felt it was the most optimal Merfolk list. It just so happens to work great due to the state of the meta. He lost top 8 because he, unfortunately, got paired against Lands. /end
@Post-Dig, Meta
Wasteland is coming back, full force.
When TC got introduced, to our favor, it pushed out Wasteland strategies. After TC got banned, we saw a moderate return of Wasteland strategies, including Lands and Dump Truck and some tempo strategies. It never came back full force because a Wasteland against a deck with DTT feels a lot like Sinkhole when done in an inopportune situation, which made Wastelands harder to use and abuse. Now that Dig is gone, Wasteland finally has its full power back, pre-Khan. So I expect an influx of Wastelands in the coming months, especially with the rise of Death and Taxes, BUG, and RUG Delver.
Risks of Forgemaster
Now that OmniTell is effectively neutered, I expect a migration towards Sneak and Show, which is the natural transition. It is similar to when Sneak and Show pilots got pushed out and was basically forced to play OmniTell to compete. Now that OmniTell is not the premier combo deck, I expect other combo decks, such as Reanimator, to be on the rise. Because of this factor, I suspect both Miracles and Death and Taxes players will use Containment Priest more as part of their SB strategy. With the return of RUG Delver, Stifle will now also be part of the meta again. Both of which are very good at dealing with Kuldotha Forgemaster. More me, Stifle is less of an issue because I play with three Lightning Greaves. All this means is that I have to play more conservatively against RUG, which is fine. Against Containment Priest, this means we need a powerful silver bullet that's not a creature. Fortunately, Staff of Nin are great against both Death and Taxes and Miracles. But both are factors now, more than before, and is something to watch out for. This may actually warrant Batterskull as a tutor target in a form of a threat.
Return of Discard
Much like Wasteland, discard strategies got hurt for two reasons. 1) Blue decks have BS and they can hide their best targets, and Blue was very dominant. 2) Discard basically fed Delve. So not only are you discarding your opponent's worst cards, but you are helping them to Dig for an answer, earlier. With Dig banned, discard spells, especially Hymn to Tourach, has legitimacy now. I can see them coming back with the return of BUG strategies. This is bad for us because they can just discard our threats, leaving us with nothing but mana/ramps, and make us rely on top-deck mode, which is not where we want to be at. Because of this, I am really temped to go back playing Welder, more than ever, even with the potential conflict with Chalice. Chalice has never been great against BUG anyways, and is usually removed against them post-board. DRS is still an issue with Welder being part of the strategy, so I think having main deck Revokers are strong. In fact, I know many DnT players who removed Revokers from their main are now temped to go back.
There is more I wanted to say but it is getting late. But the meta will definitely be shaken up quite a bit. A lot of decks like Elves, Jund, Canadian, BUG, and Stoneblade, are most assuredly to come back. Some of these may not be our best match-ups, but I am glad to see them return.
Excellent analysis!
I'm happy with the banning too, although I still think it is going to hurt our results. Nevertheless MUD will prevail, of course!
With the shaken up meta, I'm quite sure we have to shake up our lists as well... I'm not quite sure which direction to go at this point. Time will tell...
I'm a bit disappointed with the lack of talk about Black Vise and pressed for time I'm not going to be trying it tonight .
I'm also missing Mox Opal and Divining Top which would be key cards .
Rummaging Goblin is the best draw engine available playing Cavern of Souls. This isn't saying much.
May I suggest doing your own testing, research, and/or starting a thread about Black Vise in Legacy? This thread is about MUD specifics after all.
If it's not talked about big in here, there is probably a reason for it.
Great post L10.
I agree with what you have said. I would say adding more Staff of Nin and/or Batterskull would be a good thing as the format may become more grindy. I also expect more Sneak Attack but I think that Lands and Miracles will still be played a lot...so I'll still be playing a full playset of Pithing Needle.
Recently I took out Karn Liberated from my 75 and have 2 maindeck Ugin, the Spirit Dragon. Ugin is nuts. LOL, it was hard to take out Karn since hey I love Vindicate and I wanted an out to Null Rod but a resolved Ugin is GG. Against Miracles I took out a Rest in Peace, Elspeth-Knight Errant, Blood Moon and some soldier Tokens, leaving him with only 1 land and a Top (I played a Sundering Titan that got Plowed).
As far as Black Vise is concerned, I feel that if you are going to play it, it's going to be in a more dedicated Prison deck, a deck with a much lower curve. Which is totally fine but would differ substantially from Traditional Mud Lists. Sure, they would both contain many of the same cards but would function differently. At least that's the way I see it.
Guys... what if we built a MUD Aggro version more focused on the smaller stuff and hitting our curve... and took a cue from Vintage and played the Arcbound Ravager + Hangarback Walker "combo"?
I've been testing this and it has proved to feel remarkably powerful. I think I may actually have stumbled on something here:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Crystal Vein <---- 4 Cavern of Souls and/or 4 Blinkmoth Nexus can be subbed for either one of these, depending on preference and meta
4 Darksteel Citadel <----/
4 Metalworker
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Trinisphere
4 Tangle Wire
2 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB:
the usual stuff, depending on meta.
The way this deck plays out is more like an aggro-control deck that tries to finish off the opponent fast with brutal tempo gains made with the usage of Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, and Wasteland. Arcbound Ravager is remarkably powerful even when you're not an Affinity deck, because he is like a one-card combo piece that can utilize nearly everything else you play, and can invalidate spot removal as well. Hangarback Walker just generates tons of value nearly every time, and with Ravager it's just sick. I think Metalworker might just be at his best in this deck because so much of it is artifacts, and you can just vomit out your hand onto the board in one turn of a Metalworker being live.
My buddy and I were sort of playing around with an affinity build which played Gaea's cradle and equipment. Gaea's Cradle might be worth considering with the tax effects and hangarback walker to get a very large hangarback or play and equip equipment in the same turn. Just a thought.
Hey, MGB, I see that you are going to the Eternal Extravaganza. Let me know if you need to barrow anything MUD related. I see that you are trying to make a port of Frobots. To help you better, I think it may be important to know why Frobots are designed the way they are in Vintage.
Vintage Frobots
The reason why Frobots did so well compared to other Shop flavors, including Stax and Martello Shops is due to one card: Dack Fayden. If you play blue, you also play red. It just that simple. This one card presents a serious issue for Shops. Many Shop decks has evolved to combat against this one card. Martello Shops has Forgemaster to cheat in Sundering Titan to make the control player off mana to cast Dack, and Blightsteel was dropped as a win con because it can be easily stolen. However, Martello Shops has an issue of actually dealing with an active Dack.
Arcbound Ravager is one of the answers to combat against Dack because it allowed you to sacrifice any artifact so it can't be used against you.
Since Dack decks also play red, it gives them access to Meltdown and Pulverize from the SB, which is also devastating for traditional Shop decks like Martello Shops. To combat this, the convenient newly printed Hangarback Walker was the perfect solution to this. Hangarback also trumps the ever popular UR/x Delver thanks to DTT.
Revoker are usually played as a 4-of in in all Shops as a main deck answer against Dack, as well as any Moxen to cripple their opponents first few turns and win by going way ahead.
SoFaI is also great in Frobots because it prevents Dack from stealing whatever SoFaI is equipped to. The worst thing that can happen is for Dack to steal one of your creatures and is on defense. It also allows Frobots to race/kill both Delver and Pyromancer without casting any spells. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT because it slows down the DTT engine, since DTT players needs spells to counter to dig faster.
So the whole Frobot list, and the reason why it did so well in the Vintage Champs, is because it fought against the meta very well. It is also good to note that Frobots did well at the Vintage Champs were piloted by traditionally blue players. However, many of the traditional Shop players did relatively poor. I think only four Martello Shop players made top 32, even though that the great majority of the Shop players (26% of the meta) was playing Martello Shops. I think the traditional Shop players were not expected to face a meta so well prepared against them, while the traditional blue players knew that they had to have game against Shops to win. As it turns out, Frobots are also very good against some of the more traditional Shop lists.
Suggestions
I have been messing around with a Legacy port of Vintage Frobots as well. I agree. It is very strong. I think you should give Trike a try as a 2-of. The synergy is very good. You should consider adding in some Steel Overseer since it powers up Ravager, Hangarback, and Trike. It also puts Lodestone Golem out of Bolt range. Since Metalworker, Hangarback, Trike, and Steel Overseer are all Constructs, Cavern of Souls makes a perfect addition. I would say at least a 2-of.
I'd consider Inkmoth Nexus as a 2-of as well as an alternate win con. Sometimes, it's hard to win from the ground in a stalled board state. However, you can win out of nowhere by sacrificing all your artifacts to Ravager, then to Inkmoth Nexus, and swing. It is important to note that Inkmoth Nexus DOES NOT lose the counters from Steel Overseer or Arcbound Ravager, just in case you need to go for round 2.
I don't like SoFaI in the main. In Vintage, it makes sense because creature decks are either non-existent or are tempo decks that has Delver and Pyromancer. In Vintage, it literally reads "Sword of Fire and Ice deals 2 damage to target player and you draw a card" 99% of the time except against the mirror and Dredge. In Legacy, SoFaI usually just gives your creature +2/+2. Not impressive. Unlike DnT, we don’t have meaningful flyers for Frobots, unfortunately.
I do like the Sword package though. I think you should have 2 copies of Phyrexian Metamorph in your 75. It can act as an extra Lodestone Golem, really anything in your deck, an opposing Tarmogoyf, etc. I think you’d find it surprisingly good and useful. However, it is also good at copying an opposing Stoneforge Mystic. Your SB should have a copy of SoFaI and SoLaS. Against DnT and Esper Stoneblade, you can fetch for SoLaS. Against UWr Blade decks, you can fetch for SoFaI.
That's all I have for now. Right now, I am working on a Welder list for Eternal Extravaganza, so I probably won't be messing around with Legacy Frobots for a while. Good luck!
I definitely feel like you will want blinkmoth nexus in here. The flying will likely be super relevant, especially for putting counters on jitte, and connecting with sword of fire and ice.
is it possible your chalice of the void, and trinisphere might be better of being more aggro spells? i am concerned that this style of deck will fall victim to topdeck mode being very underwhelming sometimes.
ghostfire blade seems awesome. i was thinking trinisphere + tangle wire might also be too cute than effective, as neither of these cards helps you take advantage of the lock that they create. just the tangle wires might be enough, opening up more slots for you to push your advantage.
also: what about etched champion?
Is metalworker even good in this style of deck (MGB's post about Frobots) at this point? It doesn't seem like it's "powering out" anything crazy other than maybe a larger hangerback walker. It might open up 4 slots for some other useful cards instead, or am I mis-evaluating it?
Metalworker is fine because it allows him to dump his hand. Once hell bent, he can eat Metalworker with Arcbound Ravager anyways. Playing Lodestone Golem and Tangle Wire on the same turn is a very strong power move, and can win on its own. If he just lays down one threat at a time, it may actually be too slow. This is why he has Trinisphere and Tanglewire, as an attempt to slow his opponent down. Even if he draws redundant prison cards, he can feed them to Arcbound Ravager, much like what we do with Forgemaster. MGB is known to play the Stompy style decks. I think during the last Eternal Extravaganza, he played Soldier Stompy.
Personally, if I were to play Legacy version of Frobots, I like to go big. I don't even care about out tempo-ing my opponent like traditional stompy framework with Chalice and Spheres. I rather just bowl them over in the first few turn.
//Mana (24)
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Darksteel Citadel
4 City of Traitors
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
//Ramp (8)
4 Metalworker
4 Grim Monolith
//Threats (22)
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Steel Overseer
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Arcbound Ravager
2 Triskelion
//Utility (6)
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Very good synopsis/speculation! Of all these, I'm most worried about Wasteland's resurgence. I'm assuming we're all gonna come to love Crucible.
Very cool build. I'd personally prefer Batterskull to SoFaI, but that might mess up the curve. Let us know how this tests for you.
#
Not to derail us from Frobots, but played at Pat's last night. Only 12 people came in, and 4 of us were on Mud! I think I've started a trend. 3 out of my 4 matchups were new to me, so it was a good learning experience. List was the same as last week (see previous page) except swapping Hellkite for Platinum Emperion. Hellkite is a bomb in Vintage, but I have yet to see it do anything in Legacy. Emperion seems relevant in a lot of matchups, and after getting grilled by Burn last week it felt like a smart inclusion.
Round I: 12-Post: 2-1
- Game 1: My first time playing Mud vs 12-Post, so I'd never really thought about how ridiculous Cloudpost is. He casts a Show and Tell into Emrakul, but I flip a Spine to kill the Emrakul. He scoops.
- Game 2: (I board in a 2nd Spine and 2 Crucible.) He Cloudposts out an Emrakul pretty quickly, gets it looping with Karakas, and I die.
- Game 3: The poor guys mulls to 3 . . . then I get a Crucible lock.
Round 2: Grixis Delver: 2-1
- Game 1: He Wastes me off my lands and casts a Gurmag Angler. I die.
- Game 2: (I board in 2 Ratchet Bombs and a Contagion Engine.) I Waste his lands and Ratchet Bomb a Deathrite. It grinds on for a while until he has 2 Anglers. I cast a Sundering Titan to wipe his lands, follow up with a Lodestone the next turn, then Contagion Engine the turn after.
- Game 3: Grindy, Wastelandy game, but eventually I land Staff of Domination + Metalworker and he scoops.
Round 3: Food Chain: 2-0
- Game 1: Spine, Chalice, and Waste disrupt him for long enough for me to stick an Ugin. I wipe his board and he scoops.
- Game 2: (I've never played Food Chain and didn't know what he does with his infinite mana, so I board in a Platinum Angel and the 2nd Spine just in case.) Pretty much the same thing as game 1; he has trouble assembling the combo, then Ugin locks it up.
Round 4: Reanimator: 0-2
- Game 1: He's on the play with Entomb > Griselbrand. I play Chalice on 1. He Exhumes Griselbrand, draws 7, and gets himself an Elesh Norn. I die quickly.
- Game 2: (I board in the 2nd Spine, Platinum Angel, 2 Thorn of Amethyst, 2 Pithing Needle.) I keep an opener with Chalice, Trinisphere, and Thorn, but no Sol Lands. He Entombs Griselbrand before I can Chalice, Exhumes him afterwords, and I die.
Pretty solid night for Mud. I'll probably wait to see how the post-DTT meta evolves, but right now I'm thinking I need some grave hate in my board. My 3 Tsabo's Web will probably become 3 Tormod's Crypt, unless DnT rears its head.
(BTW, if people are getting tired of my reports cluttering up the thread, let me know! Don't wanna get in the way of strategy/list discussions.)
Last edited by Stuart; 10-02-2015 at 07:00 PM.
Please feel free to keep posting, reports are useful to gauge the meta and learn new techs, also your opinion is always welcome.
Just a question: Is Ugin, the Spirit Dragon pretty much an auto include in this deck? If yes, sell me on him and let me know what you consider the perfect number of copies. If no, then explain why you don't like him. Played MUD at the weekly a couple of nights ago and was locked behind my opponent's Ensnaring Bridge; I felt like Ugin would have been great here to either clear it up or bolt him to death.
Ugin solves the weakspot thus deck has, namely getting back into the game when your losing ground on the boardstate. Ugin resets that. It often locks out your opponent no matter what his boardstate is. That said, Ugin limits the options on what variant to run. You'd really want the Cloudpost manabase for the card to consistantly resolve. Red MUD increases explosiveness, but is far more instable and cant rely on getting an Ugin out midgame.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
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