[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

@ Bryant

3. Having 9 mana isn't that crazy. And even conceding that it is, it still accounts for one of the many ways to win around a DRS. So why don't you address another one? That is if you aren't laughing so hard.
4. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that it's easier to win before your opponent plays magic, but you can't just discount ANT's ability to play around DRS.
5. ANT can spit out goblins too.

The sad thing is that you are so insecure that you instantly get defensive. All I said was you are overstating the impact DRS has against ANT, a deck you don't even play, and you are reacting like I am calling you a mindless idiot.

3. Why would I need to address another way to win around DRS with ANT? It doesn't make any sense.
4. ANT has a very tough time with DRS decks due to the fact they cut off your primary resource while discard disrupts natural storm, it's just a single match-up in which TES is better due to Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens which are both stronger here than ANT.
5. Sure, "can" if the list plays it while a bunch don't.

It's not being defensive, you reiterated a point in which I already stated in my article then acted like I hadn't said it to begin with. I've played/tested ANT before, not to mention I've watched matches of ANT vs Shardless at opens, a lot of the time it comes down to the fact that they didn't draw well enough to beat Deathrite Shaman.

[davelin]

The article said that TES is better positioned than ANT versus Shardless. That is far from saying Shardless is a bad matchup for ANT.

[Pelikanudo]

@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:

Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List . My idea is to full return to this 75 which were for me an staple before the DTT and T.C. Era:

4 Gesmtones
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island

3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame

sideboard
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou
1 Duress
1 Void Snare

Basically the unique match up I lost was the 3rd game vs a kind of Super Control Deck with 4 DTT, which made me changing my mind regarding the Manabase.... the rest of pairings were super ok, of course except sometimes the hell of miracles.
So assuming miracles likely will return to RiP, doesn't seem to me much sense to play 2 Extirpate... and the 13 Manabase, saving 1 slot in my side.

My main purpose is to beat somehow miracles as it was from the beginings... and I noticed how bad Xantids are sometimes vs this archetype... Sometimes they have response for this and sometimes drawing them in multiple is just plain bad... this is why I was thinking in use 2 Xantids/1 Autumn's Veil or 1 Xantids/2 Autumn's Veil ..., I also thought in playing 1 Krosan Grip but this seems such a specific card...
Autums is also ok for the RUG match ups which will arise for sure... in that era I evaluated to play a couple of Silence and returning to -1 Fetch-1V-Island = +2CoB...

Stifle is now a thing to have in mind

What do you guys think?

EDIT: First feelings after a very small tourmament and talking with people
I faced a UR which again played full stifles and some by here will again bring their Patriot decks... Also seems thay Miracles will be played by here a lot also it seems the number os stifles has incremented a lot... The sneak/omnitell players seem to prefer again sneak and the BURG boys likely will return to stifle and S.Library...
I dont think i would need any number of pyros by the moment. Still A.D is good for removal purpose....

[wonderPreaux]

I think you shouldnt be running Bayou and Tarn...

[Alix444]

If I were hellbent (intended) on beating miracles I'd probably play 3 empties in my board and play three carpets. And just keep slamming goblins

[Lemnear]

@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:

Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List...

I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?

[Pelikanudo]

I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
(Briefly: 1st Game was lost by a Stifle to my Gobbos - a bad consequency of the banning of the DTT..., 2nd game was G.P., C.M., bayou, RoF, LED, B.W. EtW, and 3rd Natural Tendrils through S.Pierce and FoW an Wasteland)
f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.

I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.

[Lemnear]

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.

Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying

b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle

if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze

c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.

After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess

d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left

We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games

e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.

And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES' statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind ;)[quote]

f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.

Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland

I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.

Well, there was my name followed by the decklist :)

Ok, back to the SB: I dislike Veil for the same reason I dismissed Silence as there are too many Counterbalance, hatebears and resistors in the metagame to consider

[TheKingslayer]

Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

[Dr_D]

Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

Would it be possible to post or message me the exact 75 he played? I'm pretty interested in the list.

[Final Fortune]

Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.

Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.

[Lemnear]

Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.

Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.

If Decay was only for Miracles, I'd actually would like to try cutting green and try the aggro plan with 4 EtW in the 75, but the card is also there to battle chalice & Co

Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.

Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.

Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.

[Final Fortune]

Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.

[Lemnear]

Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.

Pre-TC era metagame gives us at least a clue, which was Miracles/Shardless/SneakShow

[Pelikanudo]

Related the EtW plan vs Miracles, this is something I've not tested yet and deserves testing...
I believe that the multiple EtW plan could also be viable vs Chalice.decks instead of using A.D.

The unique problem I see is that I'm not sure how good will be A.N. with 3 EtW main... as said this deserves testing.
@F.Fortune: Right this is all a matter of trading weakness for other weakness... long time ago I decided which weakness I prefer...

When I switched to 3 C.M, 13 fetch manabase, 6 Discard, I played more discard in side, but I just hated to play only 6 discard main, the same occurred with playing only 2 C.M. C.M. has provided so many Turn 1 Wins and so many Post A.N. wins that I dont think I never will switch to 2 C.M. I'm more advocated to play 6 discard thn 2 C.M....

Related about TheKingSlayer said, well I don't think Island belongs to TES, I've played not ANT - TNT instead, and the way I focus Tempo is quite different in one and other match up... EtW is an all Start in here... I agree on Lemnear in here.

[Bryant Cook]

Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.

Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.

Caleb is testing TES at the moment.

[Final Fortune]

Island for me is a SB card, I use the U/G Fetch over the B/R Fetch because I play the 3rd Underground Sea instead of the Swamp, so I can SB in the most useful basic land vs Wasteland and set up with cantrips.

I'm indifferent regarding the number of Chrome Mox, but I think you're biased towards the Golden Lands. Wastelands are more common than Stifles, Gemstone Mines deplete vs aggro-control/control, Goldlands eliminate the use of Massacre in the SB, the deck has less shuffle effects for cantrips and gives your opponent unneccessary information. Frankly I'm not Bryant, so cutting Swamp and playing the U/G Fetch has been to my benefit because I can Fetchland, go and bluff aggro-control.

[Pelikanudo]

a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.

Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying

I really don't mind what Bryant is testing - almost sure he plans on testing the mediocre island main..., something I even won't consider..., and 6 Discard? I felt clunky playing 6 discard vs for example Miracles, this is something I regreted whent switched to 13 Lands...

b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle

if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze

I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.

c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.

After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess

You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...

d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left

We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games

yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck

e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.

And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind

All I can guarranty is that I have won more 1st games vs Tempo decks than lost 1st games vs Tempo decks, and this happened from: (70/30 maybe? or even more)
a) Since I started to play EtW main
b) Not less than 3 C.M.
This at least are my statistics with the deck.

The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!

f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.

Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland

Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

[Bryant Cook]

if I was to run Island, I think I would re-consider the manabase.

4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island

SB:

1 Bayou/Tropical (Part of me likes Tropical when running a Badlands - Less hands that can cast cantrips with Bayou. That and Badlands + Tropical can cast everything).

I think I'll test the manabase above.

This is what I'm currently running:

4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp

4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

[Bryant Cook]

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