Played a small local tornament yersterday night with this list:
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Dark Ritual
2 Cursed Scroll
2 The Rack
1 The Abyss
1 Crucible of World
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Smallpox
3 Thoughtseize
4 Sinkhole
SIDE:
2 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spinning Darkness
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge
Match 1 vs Burn, 0-2: he punches me a little with some creature then burns me both game. I sided in the spinning darkness but there's little a could do. How do you approach this matchup?
Match 2 vs... Bye: honestly, the worst thing it can happen you when you want to test a new deck T_T
Match 3 vs Miracle, 2-1: game 1 I win with the rack and discard, game 3 he enstablishes counterlock quick and I draw a couple of lands too much to keep me in the game, game 3 discard smallpox and land destruction win.
Match 4 vs Shardless BUG, 0-2: he begins suspending ancestral vision, I discard his hand with touraches and when vision resolves I smallpox his goyf (basically negating the vision). However in top deck he play land, land goyf, shardless into goyf GG. Game 2 I begin with a swamp and 2 colorless lands, thoughtseize, inquisition, innocent blood and liliana. I fail to see a second black source while drawing all double black spells...
Changes I plan to the deck:
-2 the rack, -1 thoughtseize, -1 inquisition
+1 hymn, +1 dark ritual, +2 ???
I would like to play something with an impact on the game because in topdeck mode this deck kind of sucks, maybe Empty the Pits? We don't really depend on the grave and can be fuelled with dark rituals which, in late game, are dead draws.
I'm open to your criticism.
Ignorance is strength
Tom Ross wrote that it was important to draw first when playing pox. That is: to always choose going second.
Comments on that?
Originally Posted by aslidsiksoraksi
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
@burn
-this is really a tough matchup, especially since you're also running thoughtseizes which are bad against them..if you feel that spinning darkness ain't enough then a couple of void or sphere effects can help you against them, a 1st turn trinisphere followed by land destruction sometimes makes it very difficult for them to come back while you beat face with the factories..take note that in an emergency situation, you can cast spinning darkness on one of your factories to save you from a lethal direct damage spell..
@miracles
-miracles is a tough matchup so congrats on winning this one..pithing needle on top slows them, though they still have jace for you to worry about..try to keep them off 4 mana as best as you can..its very difficult to win against them once jace hits the battlefield..i'm curious why you aren't running needles in your sideboard, it helps a lot against decks we have a difficult time against..more discard spells post board help..
@shardless
-ancestral visions really hurts our deck, i remember reid duke once ran bottled cloister to match bug's card advantage..i like boarding out my rituals against bug for more business spells/removal..
i personally haven't tried the leyline of the void/helm of obedience package..how's it working for you?
I suppose that The Boss plays a Rack version of the deck (ins't him?), in this case I think the reasoning is to give your opponent less draw steps possible. You conceide him the first play but in theory this plays in your strategy:
Opponent begins
Turn1 - he plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 (him) / 7 (you)
Turn2 - you draw a card, play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 6
Turn3 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop; if he doesn't play anything is good anyway because he is not applying pressure and we can handle cards in hand. Total hand sizes = 3 / 6
Turn4 - you play a land and a discard; if you have a rack to play along you start doing damage. Total hand sizes = 2 / 5
...
You begin
Turn1 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 6 (him) / 5 (you)
Turn2 - he draws, plays a land and a 1 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 5 / 5
Turn3 - you play a land and a discard. Total hand sizes = 4 / 4
Turn4 - he plays a land and a 2 mana drop. Total hand sizes = 3 / 4
...
In the second scenario the Pox player has a very little advantage in cards in hand, but the opponent has 2 drops. In the first scenario the pox player has double the oppoent's cards in hand, so he can manage those drops and go on the offensive.
Obviously this is a simple case, I'm not doing any probabilty math, but I think this is the reason behind Tom's words.
Ignorance is strength
I think leyline is one of the best, if not the best, anti grave card, especially in a black deck that runs dark rituals. After setting my mind on Leyline playing a couple of helms as an additional wincon is not mandatory but just something to test.
Just remember that helm is good even alone in certain matchups like miracle (yesterday the miracle player countered my helm even if I didn't have leyline in play)
I see however that maybe my side isn't well build: can you advise my on some "standard" 15s?
Thank you!
Ignorance is strength
Maybe in Modern 8-rack lists, I think it absolutely wrong for legacy(especially GB Pox). Being on the play makes Smallpox so much more potent, and that is usually our best card. It is interesting in theory, they don't draw a card turn 1 and we get to draw which is one less card we need to answer and 1 card sooner they are hellbent. But in my experience Pox players will lose far more often to early pressure rather than early card advantage.
This is my reasoning for leading with targeted discard, it guarantees they are losing 3 cards, can clear the path for hymn and bait out counter-magic. I also play GB pox so I am only doing this on turn 3 or later.
For a Mono Black Pox with Dark Rituals I would make the argument that leading with the Hymn is better when playing on one of the first 2 turns. Leaving the targeted discard for last lets you make the most informed decision on what to take and this is more important when they have a full grip they would have on turn 1. For example if they have a hand of 2 lands, 2 Show and Tell, Griselbrand, Emrakul. Targeted discard into hymn is worse because if you take a creature they could be left with Show and Tell other Creature after Hymn. If you Hymn first, unless they pitch 2 lands you can take the other piece (2nd creature or 2nd Show and Tell)
uhm, depends on the kinds of decks you're preparing for..
my sideboard is constantly in flux but
i would always include at least 2 pithing needles..
Maximizing the odds of getting land out of a Hymn is not the relevance to be focusing on. Unless our opponent is playing Lands or some other atypical strategy, then the focus should be on business spells capable of affecting us. Even without looking yet, we can assume cards in their hand will have a natural priority of values, cards we would take first, second and so on with the targeted discard. So when we cast the targeted discard first, we will always be taking the same card, then cleaning up with Hymn. By casting Hymn first, we have the possibility of hitting the high value cards, and then picking the best of what remains to cripple them based on what is left. Even if we do not hit the high value cards, we can always get it with the targeted discard. So worst case of Hymn first is just as good as Hymn second.
The most prevalent weaknesses in Pox are GY usage, Creature Overload, and Non-creature/non-land permanents. For the standard 'cover your ass' Sideboard, it'd be...
2 Pithing Needle
2/3 Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg/Plague Boiler (yikes)
4/3 Engineered Plague
2/3 Ensnaring Bridge
2/3 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
Extirpate also has the hilarious ability to ruin SDT Miracles, but you need to be able to read your enemy well. I wouldn't consider Burn a 'weakness' per se and call it more of a Combo deck. I run Contamination to shut it off, and it does so very well. Still testing some ideas though.
As I thought, Black Vise is actually perfect for a pure land killing deck, Pox is a kill 'everything' deck so it doesn't work. Rack works even with Sinkhole/Wasteland since Liliana of the Veil is so sexy. She's in every Pox deck I can remember that's won so any card that dis-synergizes with the Mind-phucking Goddess is now a no-go for me... :( And I really liked Black Vise too *sniffle*
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I don't agree, there is upside to hitting lands, yes, but thats somewhat of a strawman argument on your part- you ignored the rest of what Tescrin said.
1. In the scenario you described you're ignoring the fact that your Hymn might not resolve. This is a very real concern in a blue dominated format like legacy where daze, spell pierce, and spell snare are rampant. By leading with a Inquisition you increase the chance your Hymn resolves.
2. You've ignored the fact that your 1cc spell is conditional. Assuming your 1cc spell is Inquisition of Kozilek, there is a nonzero chance you won't be any to take anything from your opponents hand, or be forced to take a sub optimal card. Jace, Force of Will, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Batterskull, Dig Through Time before it was banned, etc. Assuming this is happening on turn 3, lets imagine your opponent has a 4 card hand. You hymn first. You get 2 cards. After you cast Inquisition, you become aware of a Jace/Sneak attack about to be slammed next turn. Damn, looks like you lost because if you cast inquisition first, there is a 66% chance you get the 4 cmc spell in their hand.
So here is where I am after further testing:
2 Maze of Ith
2 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
13 Swamp
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Ratchet Bomb
3 Black Vise
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Trinisphere
4 Dark Ritual
2 Rancid Earth
4 Encroach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
SB: 1 Engineered Plague
SB: 1 Nether Void
SB: 2 Spinning Darkness
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Braids, Cabal Minion
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
SB: 1 Helm of obedience
The deck is really nice to play with. Land is very hard before boarding (and even after that) but apart from this very specific MU, I don't fear any other MU right now.
The deck can be slow as hell but the lock is real.
Feel no fear !
1. Don't be ignorant that my argument was prefaced under the modifier "in a vacuum". I stated in my original post that if I anticipate a Spell Perice or a Daze or any other effect that would threaten the Hymn, then the safer play would be to play Hymn after targeted discard. You quoted me saying this.
2. If the targeted discard is conditional, then it's conditional, and you take the same risk of whiffing on a 4 card hand as a 2 card hand. The fact that it is played represents that the conditions are an acceptable trade off to the effect. Using outlying examples isn't healthy advice. Many scenarios can be written to prove and disprove whatever it is that you want. The truth is that, taking their best card from a 7 card hand is weaker than taking their best card from a 5 card hand. Both times you are taking their best card. By casting Hymn first, you are making a more informed decision.
I just reread your post and I still don't see any mention of effects threatening the resolution of the Hymn.
Not following your math here at all. If an opponent has 4 cards in hand I have a much smaller chance of whiffing with inquisition than a 2 card hand.
My examples aren't outlying. Its just the fact of the matter that there are valuable spells cmc 4 or greater in Legacy, and if you're going to cast both spells in the same turn, there just simply isn't a reason to go Hymn -> IoK. Without knowing the content of their hand when you cast Hymn, you have no idea if you've hit important cards or not.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/20-02-15-pox-loam/
link to my current build I will probably be playing this weekend, any obvious match up you think Will be played vs that may not be answered by
my current sideboard. (yes i know it's basically 13 one of answers but I like the versatility of being able to bring in alot of cards vs basically any match-up)
I gone up in removal since the banning of dig through time since I had SnT as a bad match-up. But now I should be able to concentrate less on locking opponents out through one and it should be enough just to stabilize.
I excpect the tournament to be alot of stoneblade, miracles and storm with about 60+ people
There are several things wrong with this.
2a: As said above, if an opponent has 4 cards in hand, it is mathematically deterministic to say that it has a higher probability of containing a card of any subset your discard can hit. There is no way to argue against that without being actually wrong.
2b: You seem to think that the random probability is the same before and after the targeted discard. Leaving aside the obvious land problem, let's say they have 5 cards and you need to hit 2 of them to win:
EDIT: Fixed probabilities in Bold. This example was incorrect, see later post for correct examples and an explanation:
-Targeted discard first Hymn second gives you a 50% chance of doing this.
-Hymn first Targeted second gives you a 70% chance
Last edited by tescrin; 10-06-2015 at 08:30 PM.
Any reason for only 3 Verdant Catacombs?
PS: loved your Lille list...revamped my loam pox list to reflect yours a couple weeks ago.
Sold my Chrome moxes today. They really are not useful.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
The sideboard was transscripted incorrectly so some 1 miss there, I was in fact playing 1 engineered plague instead of explosives (though I thought about the explosives alot) there, the reason for 3 verdants is that i had 3 in the original list because I only owned 3 at the time and must have missed to update it on tapped out
But hey, bliss right?
With regards to whiffing on Inquisition to the point that it matters, if we're talking about scenarios relative to Pox where our opponent is threatening a 4 cost card, then we've already blown the game. Conjecture and theorize all you want, but in the regards of Applied Legacy, the number of nonland cards with converted mana cost of 3 or less versus the number of those not isn't a close comparison. Sure, maybe they're playing Lands or Manaless Dredge or MUD or something where all choices are either bad or nonexistent. Or, maybe more likely they're playing the gobs and gobs of other decks that top out at CMC 3, whose entire deck is legal for Inquisition. So yeah there's a nonzero chance you Hymn and then after see only lands. But at that point we're well beyond significant digits.
As far as Hymn to Tourach, in the discussion of discard, those thinking it's played to "hit" cards are misunderstanding it's purpose. All Hymn is is card advantage. Unless they have two or less cards, you should never plan around Hymn getting anything that you want it to, because it might not. For example, you must assume using Liliana's +1 will result in them discarding the best choice they have, and since this isn't fucking EDH, their best choice is also your worst choice. This is why we don't play Dash Hopes or Temporal Extortion. Apply the same logic to any targeted discard. Your best choice will be the most crippling to them. Hymn's random selection places it squarely neutral in advantage between you and your opponent. It will offer the best outcome for both players an equal number of times. The whole reason it's played is because it's card advantage.
So as I stated before, in a vacuum, which means for those uncertain: without concern for countermagic or the opponent playing Nephilim Tribal or some bullshit; you will have a more educated choice by playing the Hymn first, thereby selecting the best choice of a smaller pool of options with the targeted discard. You will better guide the play of your opponent to an end which benefits you the most. Playing Hymn second, all you achieve is a hedged bet.
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