[Primer] Elves!

[Lemnear]

I just like the extra reach it provides. I'll give an example I had from the other day.
I'm playing against infect who likely has force of will and has an inkmoth nexus and a trop in play, and I had run out of cards on my glimpse chain. I believe I was sitting at 11 mana. I have two lands, a nat order and a GSZ in my hand. I took the route of GSZ for Shaman, forcing him to die to shaman -> bounce with symbiote -> shaman, or counter it and I still have Nat Order. Just a little extra versatility that I like is all.

Well, why was passing the turn in that case to kill next turn with NO or GSZ->Symbiote totally out of question?

[Manroe]

Because I know damn well invigorate berserk and I'm dead

[EEk1TwEEk]

UG infect is the worst matchup, I don't see how you improve it with shaman of the pack. Try Melira?

[EEk1TwEEk]

Following Mr. Julian's advice, I have also cut 1 NO in favor of Sylvan library, never had a chance to drop it though :(

And btw do all here play 20 lands?
I play 19 (1 basic or 2 basic minus Pendelhaven) and I am happy with it.
Another question - what do you side after game 1 loss against mirror?

[MD.Ghost]

Are you comparing combo elves with drain eves? Are you serious? (:
This was just a fun build which is, although, is extremely good against miracles. But what about other matches? I am totally sure, that this list will be totally overwhelmed by Jund, it's too slow against burn, ANT, TES and MUD.

btw i am making drain elves to see how it plays in our metagame.

Yes i do - because it play all the combo stuff, besides the common 3 Natural Order (but it combos with Shaman of the Pack in these Slots). You can still Glimpse for the win, chain Gradle into Gradle for a Zenith>Hoof kill or do all the other common little interactions of the tribe. The only real difference is that you kill less times with Hoof (without NO) and drain more people to death.

Slow - yes any build without NO will lose some of the faster kills (lemnear mentioned it), but as i pointed out already - ANT (which is still no good matchup) is better if you play a Teeg @Main (which will work without NO) - most of the time they will not see it (because the common Elves-build has NO) and you can win the first Game at Turn 2!

Jund is ok - Hymn/Liliana/ (and PFire) can be dodged with Lieges and the build is grindy enough to go the long way. Instead of Jund i see more BUG decks in the future - which is fine too (no PFire^^) - before Khans, BUG or BGx were good matchups for Elves. Burn is not very common here and you can't match all the "random" stuff like 12Post, Tin Fins etc. - i clearly prefere to win vs some of the Top decks. This is also the case i don't mentioned MUD, i still think we get a meta shift and MUD will not see enough amount of play; TES can also be reduced to Bryant Cook, if you face storm you will see a lot more ANT pilotes around.

I played the Drain build for a handful of games and then took it to a weekly event. Every time I cast Collected Company, I would have won the game if it were a Natural Order. Instead I got a couple 1/1s. Then I drew more 1/1s and died because my 4cmc spells made 1/1s instead of +X/+X Hoofs. I definitely didn't test it properly but it didn't take too long for me to realize that the Drain build isn't for me.

I might still find a spot for a single Shaman of the Pack. Best of luck to all of you testing the Drain list though.

As most of us mentioned, Collected Company isn't good enough in the common shell. I also cutted the idea after the firsts test because you will struggle if you get only the 1/1 pair of dudes...this was the reason i changed lightning bebis drain.build back to the full playset of Glimpse and also added the double Wilt-Leaf Liege (lots of synergy, as i already explained)

------------------

After the DTT Ban we got some big tournaments last weekends, in italy over 330 players fight for the top8. Miracle conquered the 1st and 2nd place and no elves were left at the top8 - Starcitygames put 3 elves at top32 (20/22/29) and it seems that Andrew Maine (20th) took exactly Julians last NO build (see above) - with Libary main - and finished well enough. Grats!

[Julian23]

One Elves guy Top16'ed Ovino and was only left out of Top8 because he unfortunately lost an otherwise very good matchup vs. Merfolk. Good job, Alfonso!

(and Miracle was not only #1 and #2, but also #3 :D)

[apon]

One Elves guy Top16'ed Ovino and was only left out of Top8 because he unfortunately lost an otherwise very good matchup vs. Merfolk. Good job, Alfonso!

(and Miracle was not only #1 and #2, but also #3 :D)

Thanks Julian!!

here a short report.

Hi everybody,
i played elves last weekend at Ovino with top8 in 66 players side event and top16 in 334 players main event.

This was my list:
4 Natural Order
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Pendelhaven
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library

The deck was very solid both days. Liked Shaman of the pack in 2nd and third game in almost every matchup:
- it's is good when you side out 1 or 2 natural order againts blue decks or containment priest ones.
- it's good agains glacial clasm
- it's good againts counterbalance (few CMC=3 spells in miracles)
- it's good against moat
- you don't worry if you draw the shaman.

I used to play progenitus or Worldspine Wurm or ruric, but any of these is definitive in the game. In addition, drawing these high CMC creatures is very usual.


In the side event these were my scores
R1 Jund 1-2 (He played pernicious, golgari charm, punishing and toxic deluge)
R2 dredge 2-0
R3 death and taxes 2-0
R4 Shardless 2-0
R5 Team america 2-0 (against my team mate who top8ed with me)
R6 sneak attack 0-2
R7 miracles 2-0
Finally 5-2 and 8th position. It was 23:00 and we decided to split the prize.

In the main event, these were my scores
R1 12post 2-0
R2 reanimator 1-2
R3 UWR pyromancer 2-0
R4 All Spells 2-1
R5 UR delver 2-1
R6 Grixis delver 2-0
R7 Chalice-Merfolks 0-2
R8 UR delver 2-0
R9 team america 2-0

Was curious i only won the dice once in the 9 rounds. Against merfolks i was as unlucky as i was lucky against miracles first day.


Thanks Julian for all your leasons!

[danyul]

I like all the discussion lately! It's nice to see the thread alive again. I just wanted to pop in and say that I won't be updating the primer anymore. Not that I have been, anyways. It's been "under construction" for a year or more. Real life is too busy and I don't play enough MTG anymore. So (no rush or anything) if anybody wants to take a shot at revamping the primer and starting a new thread, you are more than welcome to. This thing is almost 300 pages already! It might be time for a restart. And feel free to use any parts of the old primer that you see fit. Pics and all.

I'll see some of yall at the Seattle GP!

[bigbobbobber]

Can we make nominations for who we feel should take over this primer? If so, I think that Julian would be awesome, especially since him finding a renewed interest in Legacy and Elves! since DTT's banning. I just feel that Julian has a lot of experience with the deck and obviously knows pretty much everything that there is to know about it. It was his articles on SCG after winning the BoM that convinced me to pick up Elves! and Hoof people to death.

[danyul]

I already talked to Julian about this and he's too busy with real life at the moment. Also he could get paid to write a full primer for one of the many MTG sites out there so posting all that work to The Source is low EV.

[EEk1TwEEk]

This was my list:
4 Natural Order
4 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Pendelhaven
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
4 Wirewood Symbiote
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Forest
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger

Sideboard
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
3 Cabal Therapy
1 Sylvan Library

Good job!
Got some questions:

1. You won Miracles multiple times without having a single Grip in SB. Was it always just luck?
2. You don't have Rec Sage in mainboard, were u missing him?
3. You played at least 5 delver-opponents (UWR pyro, 3 delvers, TA), did you want to play Packmaster to race them?
4. Who do u side in Sylvan Library?

Also, I would be very grateful if you show your side-in and side-out plan :)

[apon]

Good job!
Got some questions:

1. You won Miracles multiple times without having a single Grip in SB. Was it always just luck?
2. You don't have Rec Sage in mainboard, were u missing him?
3. You played at least 5 delver-opponents (UWR pyro, 3 delvers, TA), did you want to play Packmaster to race them?
4. Who do u side in Sylvan Library?

Also, I would be very grateful if you show your side-in and side-out plan :)

Only won once miracles. Don't like krosan grip plan. To win miracles you must be fast. I did in 3rd and 4th turn in my match, i was lucky because he didn't play terminus :)

Reclamation sage is a defensive plan. In first game, few opponent have massive removal and putting all creatures in battlelfield ASAP is our best plan. Reclamation makes us slower. Games 2 and 3 i expect massive removal and change my plan. I usualy side out 1-3 copies of glimpse and can run reclamtion. In first game i like CMC1 creatures to perform glimpse.

I stoped playing packmaster after a long game i finally lost to double zealous persecution from my oponnent. I had 5-6 wolves but couldn't attack because my opponent had a thalia equiped with jitte. I prefer shaman of the for this slot.
Sylvan library is our best card for miracles. My opponent did 2x1 with a wear/tear to kill sylvan and pithing. I'm thinking to change 1 discard spell and sylvan for 2 surgical extraction.


My sideboard plan is the normal one, as i learned from Julian in his article after winning BOM:
- when you are expecting massive removal : cut 1/2 heritage, 1/2 sentinel, 1/3 glimplse
- for hard combo cutting visionary and symbiote.
- blue decks or expecting containtment priest, cut 1/2 NO


here some examples
delver decks
+1 Shaman of the Pack
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-2 heritage
-1 nettle

miracles
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Shaman of the Pack
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 gaea's cradle
-2 glimplse
-1 NO
-2 heritage
-1 quirion ranger
-1 nettle

reanimator
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
-3 elvish visionary (we must be fast)
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-1 wirewood

sneak
+1 pithing (for sneak)
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
-3 elvish visionary (we must be fast)
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-1 wirewood

[EEk1TwEEk]

Only won once miracles. Don't like krosan grip plan. To win miracles you must be fast. I did in 3rd and 4th turn in my match, i was lucky because he didn't play terminus :)

Reclamation sage is a defensive plan. In first game, few opponent have massive removal and putting all creatures in battlelfield ASAP is our best plan. Reclamation makes us slower. Games 2 and 3 i expect massive removal and change my plan. I usualy side out 1-3 copies of glimpse and can run reclamtion. In first game i like CMC1 creatures to perform glimpse.

I stoped playing packmaster after a long game i finally lost to double zealous persecution from my oponnent. I had 5-6 wolves but couldn't attack because my opponent had a thalia equiped with jitte. I prefer shaman of the for this slot.
Sylvan library is our best card for miracles. My opponent did 2x1 with a wear/tear to kill sylvan and pithing. I'm thinking to change 1 discard spell and sylvan for 2 surgical extraction.


My sideboard plan is the normal one, as i learned from Julian in his article after winning BOM:
- when you are expecting massive removal : cut 1/2 heritage, 1/2 sentinel, 1/3 glimplse
- for hard combo cutting visionary and symbiote.
- blue decks or expecting containtment priest, cut 1/2 NO


here some examples
delver decks
+1 Shaman of the Pack
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-2 heritage
-1 nettle

miracles
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Null Rod
+1 Shaman of the Pack
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Abrupt Decay
-1 gaea's cradle
-2 glimplse
-1 NO
-2 heritage
-1 quirion ranger
-1 nettle

reanimator
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
-3 elvish visionary (we must be fast)
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-1 wirewood

sneak
+1 pithing (for sneak)
+3 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
-3 elvish visionary (we must be fast)
-1 NO
-1 glimplse
-1 wirewood

Thanks so much!

[kuroko16]

you opinion about blood moon?

i see some deck with 3-4 blood moon like this one

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18288&iddeck=138251

[apon]

you opinion about blood moon?

i see some deck with 3-4 blood moon like this one

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18288&iddeck=138251

blood moon makes you slower, cradle is a very good card in the deck. Your worst MUs are miracles, hard combo and lands.

Blood moon is very good against lands, but doesn't makes other bad MUs better. Adding 3-4 blood moons force you to cut other slots and make deck less stable.

I won't play them, except in a lands meta.

[Julian23]

The allure of Blood Moon is how easy it is for us to slam it down on turn2 and not be effected too much by it, while it GG's some of our opponents. The thing is, it mostly increases our % in already favorable matchups while doing little to nothing against the rather bad ones. I usually don't hate shoring up only somewhat favorable matchups with real bombs...if they are common enough, which they are not. I'd take Krosan Grip over Blood Moon any day.

[Julian23]

After playing a couple of DEs with Elves, I'm pretty sure it will soon return to DtB status. Early Magic Online results once again show a return to the pre-Khans trifecta of Miracles/Elves/Shardless, with 4c Delver and Team America chiming in as well. We'll probably also see ANT, Sneak Show and D&T up there again in the near future.

Also, the return of Progenitus in the sideboard. Played a Trial for MKM Prague on the weekend and lost my win-and-in because I didn't have it. Immediately went rigth back to MODO with the 4th NO+Prog in my sideboard and it felt pretty good. Only thing I hate is how it occupies additional sideboard slots but I guess there's nothing we can do about that.

The thing that keeps once again bugging me the most is the lack of a playable option to block flyers. I hate losing to the random Marit Lage out of the All-In Dark Depths deck. Also would help with "fogging" Griselbrand for a while. I'm aware of the 4mana girl, but don't know whether she's actually good enough.

[Cartesian]

The thing that keeps once again bugging me the most is the lack of a playable option to block flyers. I hate losing to the random Marit Lage out of the All-In Dark Depths deck. Also would help with "fogging" Griselbrand for a while. I'm aware of the 4mana girl, but don't know whether she's actually good enough.

Define playable? Elves with Reach keyword exist at 1, 2, and 3 mana.

Also, does this mean you will be back streaming Legacy?

[Darklingske]

Yeah, fliers can beat us. I guess we have some (bad) options: Dwynen (pumps our guys,but 4cmc), Thornweald Archer (2cmc, deathtouch is nice here), Ezuri's Archer (1cmc, but nothing exiting) or Lys Alana Bowmaster (3cmc and repetitive damage to fliers).All are far from exiting, but I think maybe Thornweald is the best choice.

[Hebrodt]

Have you ever thought about Bitterblossom. I've tried one copy in my Sideboard, and its solid in the Miracles Matchup. But worse than Choke in my opinion.

Maybe its good in the Lands-Matchup (against the fast Marit Lage).

Sorry for my bad english :)