[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Final Fortune]

What is Xantid for right now, let alone 3 copies? OmniTell seems a lot worse without DTT, no?

[Bryant Cook]

Miracles and Sneak & Show. Both are real decks.

[Lemnear]

I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.

You are aware that their pondering and deploying threats gives you windows to crack fetches and do some eot brainstorming followed by more fetchland activations while their mana is tied and they are not able to interact much? Most tempo decks are done with their mana development after the second dual in play, so how much interaction do you think is about to happen in response to your eot shenanigans in turn 4 or so? Let them exhaust their mana during their mainphase and eot for Ponder, Stifle, Delver, SFM, Tarmogoyf, DRS etc. while you untap and combo.

You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...

Less lands AND less shuffle effects ... it adds up. I destroyed all tempo/Delver/Blade decks in Lille by slowrolling and turning their tempo components useless.

yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck

Start cantripping turn 3 is exactly what I did, given I was able to make consecutive landdrops. Never said anything different. I invalidate their whole tempo gameplan with that ANT-like early game and it has absolutely nothing to do with playing TES. Just because I pick a deck like TES, I don't have to play it like an idiot piloting Belcher in any possible situation.

The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!

You simply look at statistics for that and look what ANT does better against tempo, which is invalidating the impact of Wasteland/Stifle/Daze by more lands and basics. We try to mimic these advantages in these matchups without giving up our potentially fast starts in matchups that demand it. It should be clear that too many lands may mess too much with Infernal Tutor, so finding a balance between fast hellbent and stability against tempo decks is the trick which fetchlands support as you can slightly manipulate the odds of drawing more lands if you need to be quick and wasteland is not your problem.

Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

[Pelikanudo]

Well let this be absolutly clear:

Suppose the hand:

LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game

what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.

My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.



A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.
regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.
regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.
regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

[Lemnear]

regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.

You come up with a scenario of me trying to beat Stifle+FoW+Wasteland+Pitch with a certain hand to have a point? For real?

regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.

That would still opens up options to Brainstorm + shuffle in response to a possible Wasteland or use the fetch as Stifle-bait like I mentioned before to combo. You would have a dual + Petal + fetch here which Beats Stifle + Daze or Spell Pierce while never giving a window to use Wasteland. That's what it's all about

regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.

And you Ponder for the mentioned discard Spell or a second land here? What do you do if you get hit by Wasteland after your Ponder? What if the Ponder was a different card instead? What if you are not even up against Tempo with that starting grip? Gemstone leaves you with a lot less options to play this hand, which i want to Highlight

regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.

Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"

Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.

[d0nkey]

*munches popcorn*

[Tvox]

I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).

Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!

[bjholmes3]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

[Lemnear]

I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).

Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!

Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)

[Lemnear]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

Interresting point to look at it. I agree that never players often force to combo in the first three turns against Tempo for essentially no reason as many of the problems in this matchup like Daze or Wasteland invalidate themselves over time naturally. In most game 1s against Tempo it does not matter if EtW is cast turn 1 or turn 4 as they lose to it near anyways.

To summarize: people confuse the Gameplan for tempo with the one for Combo

[Pelikanudo]

Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!

For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.

I am not sure if to say thanks for the advise, but I have played vs Tempo with Storm from the beggining of the existence of RUG..., maybe when this archetype played that 1/1 which added G to the mana pool and with 3shold is a 4/4 - don't remember its name...

I go off with TES exactly when I need to. I just love the ability of TES of having the possibility of going off when there is a need/chance, which doesn't mean I use TES as Belcher...
The unique Storm Deck I have not tested and didnt get Top 8 in any torunament is Candelabra SpiralTides.... the rest I got any Top 8. (ANT-TNT - I hate the plain ANT is, DDFT, TES, Solidarity - those wonderful years...)

My mind is mathematical as hell, you can see the above posts Lemnear vs Me. I see the contradictions Lemnears on d):

P: will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?

Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.

L: lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?

P: regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.

L: You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.

Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"

Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.



Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.

[Bryant Cook]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

[Lemnear]

Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.

A) yeah, you can draw your 8th card, drop your Petal and pass, but its a wasted turn as you do not get closer to playing around Daze/Pierce at all. It gets really awkward if you draw more Gemstones/Duals afterwards for obvious reasons

B) who said anything about that? I said fetches leave you the option to work around certain card combinations your opponent can hold, while you point to a combination of 3+(!!!!) specific disruption spells to discredit my general claim. It feels like someone who comes up with "TES is a crap deck, because you can't beat T1 SolLand, Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1!". Your Gemstone scenario gets mauled by a combination of Wasteland/Pierce/Daze as well, so whats the actual point you are trying to make? Mine is that if I run more (fetch)lands, I can work around Daze/Pierce/wasteland more reliable than with less lands or Gemstones while also having more options to react to certain scearios (drawing Probe, early pressure, etc)

C) yeah, thats why I was just talking about options. We didn't even take the card drawn in your turns drawstep and the three revealed by brainstorm into account for further analysis: if you draw another IMS in those 4 cards, you can play around Daze in addition to the Stifle. I however suspect, you will point me to an additional FoW next.

"you can't beat FoW+Pitch+Daze+Stifle by turn two so Fetchlands are bad" ... "Beating Stifle+Daze by turn two is not enough to give Fetchlands credit" ... etc.

[Tvox]

Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)

I'll have to take you up on that in a couple of months when I can justify purchasing the xantid and some of the vintage cards you're selling ;)

[Pelikanudo]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...

[davidn]

Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...

Yeah Bryant Cook stop offense him. :)

[Jaytron]

Man, the Storm camp is much more interesting to observe than the others.

[Bahamuth]

Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.

Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.

[Bryant Cook]

Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.

You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal, he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.

As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.

As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.

[Pelikanudo]

You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal,

Yes, I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petiton didn't exist, now I play 1 Autums Veil in the Side - I would prefer to play 1 silence instead.
I've always preferred to play Therapies and Duress instead of Silence main - The problem was that it seemed you weren't playing TES if you didn't play Suilence main... My meta was so different... and I 've always wanted such a change...

he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.

long time ago I dont ask questions - I ask for opinions, this is a difference.
The unique thing that got better the deck were:
Inclusions of C.Therapies and G.P. and EtW - all of these changes were idea from mainly Bahamut. Related to EtW, I recognize, I was very skeptical about this.

As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.

It is ok.

As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.

As said, you didn't offense me!


Apart, Bahamut, please could you share your last TES list, thanks