[Deck] CounterSliver

[kicks_422]

Actually, I suggested the name MeatHooks because of the arms of all those slivers... But whatever you think is a good explanation for it, then...

Yeah, it would be fun to say "I won that tourney using MeatHooks..."

[Blair Phoenix]

Its also 56 cards, meaning....

56? My calculator(Yes I am THAT lazy) decrees otherwise. The deck is exactly as Pinder added it. 57-58 cards with either 2 or 3 open slots.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Has there been any evolution on the sideboard? The first entry still has 7 open slots so that's not exactly optimal. I know that it depends on local meta but im sure we can get that number down below 5.

Here's mine(yes, it 15 cards Mr. Calculator )

4 Stifle/CoV (other one is MD)

2 Disenchant(humility kills slivers; bad :( )
2 Arcane Laboratory(gg, combo :P)
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Meddling Mage
2 Energy Flux(eat it affinity)

[Volt]

Has there been any evolution on the sideboard? The first entry still has 7 open slots so that's not exactly optimal. I know that it depends on local meta but im sure we can get that number down below 5.

Here's mine(yes, it 15 cards Mr. Calculator )

4 Stifle/CoV (other one is MD)

2 Disenchant(humility kills slivers; bad :( )
2 Arcane Laboratory(gg, combo :P)
2 Engineered Explosives
3 Meddling Mage
2 Energy Flux(eat it affinity)

Well, first of all, the 4 Stifles should stay in the maindeck as far as I'm concerned. If we move them to the sideboard, our game 1 matchup vs. storm combo is really going to suck. You're not going to keep them from going off with just FoW and Daze. Stifles are just so good all around that I don't even want to discuss removing them from the maindeck.

As far as the sideboard, we're never going to nail down a definitive 15 cards, and it's useless to try. I would start with 4x Meddling Mage, 2-3 Engineered Explosives, 2-4 Disenchants, and go from there, filling in the rest based on metagame considerations.

[Pinder]

...That decklist is Stifle-less.

Oops, yeah. In that case, I would suggest filling the last 2 slots with Stifle and taking out a Plated Sliver and a CoV for Stifles 3-4. Or we could always go with the 3/3 split, running one of each in the board, I suppose. I wouldn't drop below 17 lands, though, even with all of this 'statistical variation' business running around. Any less than that and I think we could get severely mana screwed. For reference, here's the list I should have posted last time (i.e., the one with Stifle in it):

//Land (17)
4 Tundra
4 Tropical Island
3 Windswept Heath
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island

//Dudes (16)
4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Slivers
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

//Draw (8)
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions

//Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle

//Removal (7)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Chain of Vapor

I'm really pushing for this as the standard list. Call and EE are great, but I think this is a better game one across most of the format, and that they can find a home in the board. A possible board for this list might be:

4 Meddling Mage
3 EE
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Null Rod
3 Pithing Needle

Or something like that. I realize that the sideboard is a lot like AM PM, with too much good stuff. There is easily a handful of other cards that could find their way in. The only thing that is absolutely necessary in the board is Mage. And possibly Pithing Needle. Everything else is really metagame dependant.

And I think that someone really needs to carry this deck to some big tournament, so there'll be a report on SCG or something about how 'Meat Hooks came out of nowhere and took the tournament by storm' .

[Volt]

That list looks really, really good, Pinder. My only comment is about the sideboard. It would be ideal to have 7 cards to bring in against Solidarity, since we have 7 dead cards in that matchup (4 StP + 3 CoV). I like Armageddon or Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, in addition to the 4 Meddling Mages, of course.

And I think that someone really needs to carry this deck to some big tournament, so there'll be a report on SCG or something about how 'Meat Hooks came out of nowhere and took the tournament by storm' .

And I totally agree with that sentiment. I wish there was some big Legacy event coming up in our area that you, Mav, and I could play this deck at.

[Pinder]

I know. We need to get some people on the east coast interested in this thing. I suppose that might happen when it hits the Open.

As for the sideboard, I'm not really sure that we need clog the sideboard with extra cards to replace the dead cards. Meddling Mage is really all we need, and our matchup is already strong first game anyway. I think the other 11 slots left in the board should go to improving our matchups against Thresh, Burn, Iggy Pop and other decks that we might not be so favorable against. Oh, and Pithing Needle, because every sideboard runs Pithing Needle.

[xsockmonkeyx]

That list looks really, really good, Pinder. My only comment is about the sideboard. It would be ideal to have 7 cards to bring in against Solidarity, since we have 7 dead cards in that matchup (4 StP + 3 CoV). I like Armageddon or Arcane Lab/Rule of Law, in addition to the 4 Meddling Mages, of course.

The new list is the best yet IMO.

Arcane Laboratory is strictly better than Rule of Law due to potential FoW pitchage. Arcane Lab is 3cc vs 'geddon at 4 and AL fights both Iggy Pop and Solidarity. Armageddon potentially kills solidarity but the game might be over before you can cast it at 4 mana. Geddon doesnt really help the Iggy Pop match up much because they can still go off with 0-1 lands in play.

What would improve the thresh matchup? Tormod's Crypt seems kind of meh.

[Pinder]

Mav mentioned Jotun Grunt against Thresh the other day. Other people are siding it, and it's a solid 4/4 for 2 mana. It will probably die, but not before we get in about 2-3 swings with it.

As for Arcane Lab, I didn't notice that in your earlier post. It seems like a nice include over Swords or CoV for Solidarity and Iggy Pop, and it doesn't hurt us terribly either. And we can always pitch multiples to Force of Will. AL looks like a solid SB card.

So, we have:

//Sideboard
4 Meddling Mage
3 Arcane Lab
3 Tormod's Crypt
5 Random Metagame Slots

or something similar?

EDIT:

The new list is the best yet IMO.

That list looks really, really good, Pinder.

So, everyone's okay with me updating the main list to reflect that last one?

EDIT SOME MORE BECAUSE OF SOME SERIOUS SHIT:

So there's another Sliver in the spoiler. It's not in our colors. It's black. In case you haven't seen it, you can look at it here.

Let me be the first to say WHAT. THE. FUCK. They printed a Sliver that's only good when there are no other Slivers in play, and one that, incidentally, completely fucking hoses the shit out of us.

I might be overreacting, because we can still counter/swords/chain the bastard, but honestly, this is something I'd rather not have to worry about. The source is "anon", so I'm just hoping they got it wrong. Really wrong. If it's right though, I'd love to crack this thing in Limited .

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED SOMETHING AND I'M FREAKING OUT MORE NOW:
Nope, I'm not overreacting. I just realized that because of our goddamn slivers this thing is likely an untargetable, 7/8 flying first striker that makes us take 3-4 damage during our upkeeps. It's pretty much a must-counter, because if it hits the table, we're screwed.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT I PROBABLY AM OVERREACTING, AT LEAST A LITTLE:

Okay, so Mav has convinced me that this really isn't as bad as it sounds, because there aren't a whole lot of decks that can or will abuse this, and if it gets big, we'll just have to find ways to deal with it SB. He mentioned Wing Shards. Okay. Whew. Maybe it's not so bad.

[Volt]

So there's another Sliver in the spoiler. It's not in our colors. It's black. In case you haven't seen it, you can look at it here.

Let me be the first to say WHAT. THE. FUCK. They printed a Sliver that's only good when there are no other Slivers in play, and one that, incidentally, completely fucking hoses the shit out of us.

I might be overreacting, because we can still counter/swords/chain the bastard, but honestly, this is something I'd rather not have to worry about. The source is "anon", so I'm just hoping they got it wrong. Really wrong. If it's right though, I'd love to crack this thing in Limited .

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED SOMETHING AND I'M FREAKING OUT MORE NOW:
Nope, I'm not overreacting. I just realized that because of our goddamn slivers this thing is likely an untargetable, 7/8 flying first striker that makes us take 3-4 damage during our upkeeps. It's pretty much a must-counter, because if it hits the table, we're screwed.

EDIT BECAUSE I REALIZED THAT I PROBABLY AM OVERREACTING, AT LEAST A LITTLE:

Okay, so Mav has convinced me that this really isn't as bad as it sounds, because there aren't a whole lot of decks that can or will abuse this, and if it gets big, we'll just have to find ways to deal with it SB. He mentioned Wing Shards. Okay. Whew. Maybe it's not so bad.

Worship.

EDIT: and Light of Day (janky, I know)

EDIT 2: side out Crystalline Sliver ?

[Blair Phoenix]

When Time Spiral hits, do you think the new Split Second Stifle will replace Stifle in this deck?

[Volt]

It costs 1U.

Instant
Split second (As long as this spell is on the stack, players can't play spells or activated abilities that aren't mana abilities.)
Counter target activated or triggered ability.
Activated or triggered abilities cannot be played by that card until end of turn.

It's on mtgsalvation.com

Sudden Stifling.

To answer your question, no, it will not replace Stifle in this deck. It costs 2, and that makes a big difference. Can't stifle a first turn Wasteland or fetchland. Can't play a third turn sliver and still have stifle mana left over.

[Pinder]

Yeah, it's just that this costs 2, which is too much in this case. It's not quite as good as Stifle against Fetchlands. They've already sacced the land, so it's not like the 'can't play it again until next turn' doesn't really matter, unless they have exploration and Crucible. And you can't use it first turn, where stifling a fetchland is best. It's also not that great against Aether Vial, since it will already be tapped anyway. Stifle is just cheaper, and in the matchups where Stifle shines, there's not a whole lot of countermagic, so the Split Second ability is fairly irrelevant and not really worth the extra colorless in the cost.

And Juzam Sliver isn't as horrible for us as I originally imagined. You can ignore all that stuff I said earlier. I completely forgot about Worship. Between that, Mage and countermagic, we should be able to deal with this thing no problem.

[MattH]

Oh wow. That's true. I hadn't considered that. No more "In response to your Stifle, I Brain Freeze you again." This card alone may kill storm-based combo.

Believe it or not, this could be bad for us. If combo decks shrivel up and die, then control decks like Rifter will come back, and that would probably spell the death of MeatHooks.

If you want to beat Rifter, run 1. a way to kill Humility, and 2. Hibernation Sliver (yes it means splashing for black).

[Pinder]

Hrm....this could be the absolute tech against Solidarity. I don't think that it will be any stronger against Iggy Pop than regular Stifle, as Tendrils is a sorcery and they won't likely be playing another one on their turn. It all hinges on the wording:

Activated or triggered abilities cannot be played by that card until end of turn.

Now, does that mean any copies of the card, or just the one you Stifled? If it's the former, Solidarity just died, but if it's the latter, they can just wait till it resolves and play another one, which is a completely different card.

I really hope that it's the first one.

If you want to beat Rifter, run 1. a way to kill Humility, and 2. Hibernation Sliver (yes it means splashing for black).

Well, we have Chain of Vapor/Counterspells against Humility. And as Hibernation Sliver doesn't really do much under a humility or in response to one, I'm not sure why you suggested it. Were you joking?

[Volt]

Hrm....this could be the absolute tech against Solidarity. I don't think that it will be any stronger against Iggy Pop than regular Stifle, as Tendrils is a sorcery and they won't likely be playing another one on their turn. It all hinges on the wording:

Now, does that mean any copies of the card, or just the one you Stifled? If it's the former, Solidarity just died, but if it's the latter, they can just wait till it resolves and play another one, which is a completely different card.

I really hope that it's the first one.

Let me repeat it. The death of combo decks would mean the return of decks running Humility, WoG, Nev Disk and the like, which would not be a good thing for MeatHooks. That would be a shame, since we've hardly had a chance to get this deck off the ground yet. The reason this deck is good is because combo is viable in Legacy right now, and people are playing it. We should hope for that to continue. I say this despite the fact that I loathe combo decks with a passion. However, we beat combo decks. Why would we want to see a good matchup disappear from the format?

Btw, I've been play-testing the new decklist tonight, and I have to say I'm not enamored with the CoVs to this point. I generally find myself wishing they were Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives instead. Would it be wacky to run Pithing Needles AND Stifles maindeck?

[kicks_422]

I've borrowed the cards I need just in time to take this to our local tourney in the weekend... I'm using the list recently posted by Pinder... I've sleeved it up and am playtesting it with my friends, and it's pretty darn good, really... Only thing I can't consistently beat is my Dryad Sligh deck, that Volt is aware of... I'm the only guy that plays it in my meta though, so I'm not worried...

EDIT: Actually Volt, I don't think the death of combo would also spell death of MeatHooks... If we really want to develop this deck, we also have to factor in its evolution... Like when Miracle Gro lost its steam because of the influx of aggro decks (Goblins, actually) and the subsequent influx of creature removal in decks, the deck evolved into Threshold... Modifying the list into something which pawns control wouldn't be too hard, as we still have Crystalline, which nullifies targeted removal, and Chain for troublesome permanents, and if control becomes a huge force again, Counterspells could be sneaked in somewhere... But then again, that's looking forward to something that might not happen... In the meantime, let's just enjoy the awesomeness that is MeatHooks...

[Maverick676]

There is no way combo is going to die in legacy. Iggy-Pop could care less about this card. Leyline of the void + Ill-Gotten Gains removes the hand so you can't hold onto this until they play tendrils. In fact with maindeck defense grid Iggy-Pop can play around this card all day long.

Rifter if it were to return would be a bad matchup for this deck, but it would be by no means unwinnable. Ray of revaltion would just have to be a 4 of in the sideboard, Needle can shut off their most dangerous cyclers such as decree, and dragon. Hell maybe we would even have to run stabilizer. This would take up alot of board space so we wouldn't have room for thresh hate but we would still kick the crap out of gobs and go 50/50 or so against thresh.

All things considered I think this card will not see much play in legacy because of its two mana casting cost. Stifle usually does the same job but for one blue. As to the secondary ability, How many triggered or activated abilities are used more than once in a turn anyway? Pyschatog is the only one that comes to my mind, but I'm sure there are a few more. But since most of our stifle targets are one shot deals, such as wasteland, ringleader, tendrils ect, we would just be paying one more mana for the same effect 90% of the time.

[Pinder]

Btw, I've been play-testing the new decklist tonight, and I have to say I'm not enamored with the CoVs to this point. I generally find myself wishing they were Pithing Needles or Engineered Explosives instead. Would it be wacky to run Pithing Needles AND Stifles maindeck?

Not wacky, just awesome. Unfortunately, I'm not sure there's room to run them side by side unless we take out CoV. On that note, what were you testing against? I'll admit that CoV is worse than EE against Thresh, but it almost all of our other matchups (Solidarity aside) it serves some purpose (bouncing Vials, Defense Grids, turn 0 Leylines, etc). I will say that using CoV against a turn 0 Leyline really improves the Iggy Pop matchup. Sure, they make you discard your hand, but when you can get back FoW, Stifle, and Daze afterwards, your matchup significantly improves. And they can't really afford to be saccing lands, so I've never really had to worry about them bouncing something if we don't already have a Crystalline Slliver.

Perhaps CoV/Engineered Explosives/Pithing Needle is a metagame slot. I prefer CoV personally, but depending on what's running around in your meta, the other two could be just as useful.

[kicks_422]

I've read about an Opposition Sliver, and it sounds pretty interesting... Might be a good SB card, though I think it's going to cost 2UU so it might be a stretch...

Brood Sliver + Shifting/Winged Sliver + Opposition Sliver is hot though... Heh, might try that out in casual...