Miracle Control

[wizard_of_gore]

Costing one less mana is a big advantage against Infect. You might not have the time to resolve a 4 CMC spell, especially through Daze. And some infect decklists do run 1-2 Spell Pierces. That said, Peacekeeper is not 100% game over. It can be killed by Berserk, and some lists do play Piracy Charm.

Personally, I've never felt that the Reanimator matchup needs something as drastic as Humility. I can't even recall the last time that I lost to Reanimator.

Peacekeeper can't be killed by berserk, EVER.
Btw., yes, they can spend billion turns to find that one narrow answer to it (piracy charm if they play it at all), but that means you are already in long game which is going in favor for you.

(sorry for bad english)

[Quasim0ff]

Costing one less mana is a big advantage against Infect. You might not have the time to resolve a 4 CMC spell, especially through Daze. And some infect decklists do run 1-2 Spell Pierces. That said, Peacekeeper is not 100% game over. It can be killed by Berserk, and some lists do play Piracy Charm.

Personally, I've never felt that the Reanimator matchup needs something as drastic as Humility. I can't even recall the last time that I lost to Reanimator.

How exactly do you plan on getting Peacekeeper destroyed by berserk?

If that've happened to you, well... RTFC.


I think that, the infect matchup being terrible, is very exaggerated. I don't remember when I lost to it, and I play the matchup (at least) 3 times a month, for the last... Year, or something. I don't play garbage like Peacekeeper, Humility or something along these lines.

[decan]

well if you have humility out and your opponent animates inkmoth it still has infect, flying and is a 1/1... simply this should explain why peacekeeper is better (there are a bunch of other reasons as well)

[kkkant]

The issue with Peacekeeper/humility is not only its advantages aggainst reanimator/infect which are not terrible matchups, but merfolk, goblins and sneak and show, which can be pretty tough

[twndomn]

I think that, the infect matchup being terrible, is very exaggerated. I don't remember when I lost to it, and I play the matchup (at least) 3 times a month, for the last... Year, or something. I don't play garbage like Peacekeeper, Humility or something along these lines.

First of all, generalizing a MU based on your particular match experience is risky. Infect piloted by Tom Ross is very different from others.

Second, if Reid Duke is willing to run Peacekeeper/Humility in his Miracles, then the cards are not garbage. It's just different tools for certain player's customized builds.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7584&d=243519&f=LE

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8778&d=250119&f=LE

[Minniehajj]

Reid Duke is the only person that could ever do well with one of his lists. Same can be said for Joe Lossett. The lists don't seem great on paper, but players of their caliber are not the same as the regular miracles player. Their skill allows them to navigate builds that are (subpar) on paper, but they will do well with them regardless. There are plenty of players like that, even outside of the miracles archetype.

[Quasim0ff]

First of all, generalizing a MU based on your particular match experience is risky. Infect piloted by Tom Ross is very different from others.

Second, if Reid Duke is willing to run Peacekeeper/Humility in his Miracles, then the cards are not garbage. It's just different tools for certain player's customized builds.

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=7584&d=243519&f=LE

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=8778&d=250119&f=LE

Reid stated numerous times, that the sole reason he played Peacekeeper was to metagame versus Tom Ross. Not infect in general.

Obviously, I'd much rather play versus UWR Delver than Infect, but by no means am I frightened if the opponent opens up with turn 1 glistener elf or something like that.

Reid Duke also plays zero Snapcaster Mages, which means he can't use swords twice. That puts a serious constraint on the ability to keep the board safe, which means Peacekeeper is a might more viable plan for him, compared to the Snapcaster/Clique builds.

[presquepartout]

How exactly do you plan on getting Peacekeeper destroyed by berserk?

If that've happened to you, well... RTFC.


I think that, the infect matchup being terrible, is very exaggerated. I don't remember when I lost to it, and I play the matchup (at least) 3 times a month, for the last... Year, or something. I don't play garbage like Peacekeeper, Humility or something along these lines.

My bad. Have to say that I don't think I've actually played a game against Infect where I actually resolved Peacekeeper.

[decan]

Reid Duke is the only person that could ever do well with one of his lists. Same can be said for Joe Lossett. The lists don't seem great on paper, but players of their caliber are not the same as the regular miracles player. Their skill allows them to navigate builds that are (subpar) on paper, but they will do well with them regardless. There are plenty of players like that, even outside of the miracles archetype.

Please don't mention Reid and Joe in the same sentence. There are worlds between the skill level of those players.
Dont get me wrong, I like Joe. But Reid plays maybe 30% of the opens joe plays, hardly ever plays Legacy yet his results are arguably superb on an scg-open-level which they should since he's a platinum pro.
In general just because a good or great player has success with his list DOES NOT mean he couldnt have even more success with a better list (read 4 ponder and 3 Snapcaster Mage=least variance). I get it. Those players want to be special with their builds and are stubborn. Especially joe who sees himself as a legacy expert. Joe plays very many tournaments yet his conversion rate isnt super impressive to me.
But at some point you have to wonder: Do I want to win more matches and money?

[JosephK]

Please don't mention Reid and Joe in the same sentence. There are worlds between the skill level of those players.
Dont get me wrong, I like Joe. But Reid plays maybe 30% of the opens joe plays, hardly ever plays Legacy yet his results are arguably superb on an scg-open-level which they should since he's a platinum pro.
In general just because a good or great player has success with his list DOES NOT mean he couldnt have even more success with a better list (read 4 ponder and 3 Snapcaster Mage=least variance). I get it. Those players want to be special with their builds and are stubborn. Especially joe who sees himself as a legacy expert. Joe plays very many tournaments yet his conversion rate isnt super impressive to me.
But at some point you have to wonder: Do I want to win more matches and money?

Why do you people always have the need to compare players ? And why would you have the right to judge them ? Especially a semi pro like Joe Losset. You agree, you don't agree with their builds, you give your reasons, that's fine, no more.

[twndomn]

Guys, focus on builds, names are there for reference only.

1. Humility and Peacekeeper are used in customized build, best known by Reid Duke's lists (As I linked).

2. We don't run customized build, most of us run builds containing Ponders, popularized by Schonegger, which does not contain Humility and/or Peacekeeper.

If you want to experiment with those cards, that's fine, they are not garbage, but do consider the context/75 list those cards are in.

As to Burn, there're footage of Burn players crushing Miracles using Firecraft, it's a valid concern.

https://youtu.be/ampBaRyWxZM

However, RiP is not it.

[Minniehajj]

Guys, focus on builds, names are there for reference only.

1. Humility and Peacekeeper are used in customized build, best known by Reid Duke's lists (As I linked).

2. We don't run customized build, most of us run builds containing Ponders, popularized by Schonegger, which does not contain Humility and/or Peacekeeper.

If you want to experiment with those cards, that's fine, they are not garbage, but do consider the context/75 list those cards are in.

As to Burn, there're footage of Burn players crushing Miracles using Firecraft, it's a valid concern.

https://youtu.be/ampBaRyWxZM

However, RiP is not it.

Apologies, I only included names originally to describe two specialized players. I would never play either one of those lists regardless, and I would never play Peacekeeper unless it was for the reason Duke did, a 16 player metagame where at least 1 player was GUARANTEED to be on infect.

I will always respect burn, but having firecraft isn't necessarily different from things like vexing shusher, and we will continue to play to beat them like we usually do.

RIP is not helpful against burn.

[lordofthepit]

Please don't mention Reid and Joe in the same sentence. There are worlds between the skill level of those players.
Dont get me wrong, I like Joe. But Reid plays maybe 30% of the opens joe plays, hardly ever plays Legacy yet his results are arguably superb on an scg-open-level which they should since he's a platinum pro.

I have a script that downloads SCG results and compiles Swiss records for all players in Legacy Opens or Open weekend Premier IQs (as long as they're on SCG's site).

Joe Lossett is 298-103-46, with 9 byes (71.81% MW, including intentional draws but not byes)
Reid Duke is 113-44-12, with 1 bye (70.41% MW, including intentional draws but not byes)

Reid Duke may be one of the best Magic players overall, but it isn't unreasonable to compare a non-pro top-level Legacy specialist to a pro who's less specialized (as long as you're talking about Legacy).

[decan]

I have a script that downloads SCG results and compiles Swiss records for all players in Legacy Opens or IQs (as long as they're on SCG's site).

Joe Lossett is 298-103-46, with 9 byes (71.81% MW, including intentional draws but not byes)
Reid Duke is 113-44-12, with 1 bye (70.41% MW, including intentional draws but not byes)

Reid Duke may be one of the best Magic players overall, but it isn't unreasonable to compare a non-pro top-level Legacy specialist to a pro who's less specialized (as long as you're talking about Legacy).

Thanks for the data. Another point i want to add is data cant messure the opponents skill level. The results seem similar. But Reid only plays tournament within reasonable distance to sugarloaf. I feel like the general skill level of east coast players is higher because they have more big events. Add to that that Joe plays a lot of IQ's. So Joes stats could be quite inflated. But I agree that specialising in a format can decrease the gap by a lot.
But enough of that, this is very off topic.

[Bigturk94]

I've recently got back to trying to build my miracles deck. I don't have all the cards yet but I'm slowly by getting there. For the sake of budget ( and that it's kinda cool ), I'm going to construct a RIP build that's only u/w. Here's the list I'm going for at the moment.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248178&f=LE

I understand this is not the most optimal way to play miracles, but given my criteria do you think this is the best lost I can go for? What changes would you make to this list to improve it?

Thanks,

[Moa]

I've recently got back to trying to build my miracles deck. I don't have all the cards yet but I'm slowly by getting there. For the sake of budget ( and that it's kinda cool ), I'm going to construct a RIP build that's only u/w. Here's the list I'm going for at the moment.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248178&f=LE

I understand this is not the most optimal way to play miracles, but given my criteria do you think this is the best lost I can go for? What changes would you make to this list to improve it?

Thanks,

If you're building that exact list you could cut a tundra and the karakas and more than pay for a volcanic island.

[Bigturk94]

If you're building that exact list you could cut a tundra and the karakas and more than pay for a volcanic island.

I don't have the exact cards as that list, I only have 1 tundra and no krakas. I also don't have the exact sideborad. Should have put this is my original post, oops.

[Moa]

I don't have the exact cards as that list, I only have 1 tundra and no krakas. I also don't have the exact sideborad. Should have put this is my original post, oops.

If I were you I'd just build normal miracles and play basics/shocks while you get it in order. That's what I did and I'm pretty happy about the way it worked out.

We could probably be more helpful if you posted what you have already. If you already have tarns then I'd say just splash red with a mountain/steamvents because red blasts are insanely good.

[Ocean]

As to Burn, there're footage of Burn players crushing Miracles using Firecraft, it's a valid concern.

https://youtu.be/ampBaRyWxZM

However, RiP is not it.

Got to hate that player. Bad and slow.

[TheArchitect]

I've recently got back to trying to build my miracles deck. I don't have all the cards yet but I'm slowly by getting there. For the sake of budget ( and that it's kinda cool ), I'm going to construct a RIP build that's only u/w. Here's the list I'm going for at the moment.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8383&d=248178&f=LE

I understand this is not the most optimal way to play miracles, but given my criteria do you think this is the best lost I can go for? What changes would you make to this list to improve it?

Thanks,

Playing RIP, helm, Energy field and 23 lands, seems much more expensive than playing 21 lands, 4 ponders and more counterspells and removal. Also, RIP and its friends are just not good.

If you on a budget, you can get away with 1 tundra for a while. 4 is never needed, even if you had all the cards in the world and karakas is also not really good in your build. Fetchlands are essential, you NEED at least 9 of them, ideally even more. Buy these before you buy any more duals or other pricey cards.

I keep a running budget miracles list updated because people are always asking where to start with the deck when on a budget, this is probably very close to your best option:


21 LANDS
4 Island
2 Steam Vents
4 Flooded Strand
1 Tundra
2 Hallowed Fountain
4 Other Blue fetches (doesnt matter what ones)
2 Plains
2 Arid Mesa


4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Force of Will (You can probably get away with 3 FoW and another Counterspell for a while if you want to)
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce

4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor (some lists might want 3 Jace, personally I am not even using my 3rd jace right now because I think 2 is the right number in this meta)
2 Monestary Mentor

Snapcaster is expensive, and very good, but the deck can function without him. Eventually you should get 3ish of them though.


SIDEBOARD:
2 Rest in Peace
3 Meddling Mage
3 Pyroblast
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Disenchant
1 Pithing Needle
1 Council's Judgment
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Counterspells/Spellpeirce >> 2 Flusterstorm

Flusterstorm is a very expensive card, but its relatively low impact for its cost. Also, in some metas I chose to not even use my flusters because spell peirce was better at the time. So you can get that latter.

Priority for expensive things:
1. Top, CB, 9+ Fetchlands: the deck needs these.
2. 2 Jace
3. 1 Tundra
4. FoW
5. 1 more tundra, 1 Volc
6. Snapcasters, 3rd jace (if the meta is even good for jace)
7. 1 more tundra, 1 Volc
8. SB stuff (blood moon, flusterstorm, etc)