[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Bosque]

I like having a Wingmare to tutor for in Wr, but I'm sure others with more time in on the splash may have different opinions..

[iatee]

I've gone up to 3 Karakas and am playing Wingmare+Mangara as my one ofs. So zero beaters main, one Crusader in the board.

Tonight I had an interesting decision vs Reanimator - I'm not sure if I made the right one. I'm on the draw post-board and have Karakas, Thalia, RIP, Fetch, Waste and 2 not-important cards. T1 he plays Fetch, Lotus Petal and passes. T1 I think for a while and decide to play Karakas. T2 he thinks for a while, decides not to play around STP and entombs Grave Titan. I don't draw a STP and lose. He signaled he had no countermagic when he did it, which might not be true but let's assume it is.

So the question is - is not playing Karakas to try to bait a legendary card smarter? By playing it I'm basically forcing his hand to go for a non-legendary creature - which is not what I want as I have no way to beat Titan or Tide in hand. But not playing Karakas risks letting him t2 GBrand, draw 14 cards and leave it in play - and I can't resolve a t2 RIP after that. It also gives him room to misplay into t2 Iona, however.

I also was hoping he might have a Needle in hand and use his turn to respond to the Karakas + cantrip/filter instead of going off t2, or had an opening hand that was depending on self-discarding instead of Entomb.

What do you guys think?

[Warden]

I've gone up to 3 Karakas and am playing Wingmare+Mangara as my one ofs. So zero beaters main, one Crusader in the board.

Tonight I had an interesting decision vs Reanimator - I'm not sure if I made the right one. I'm on the draw post-board and have Karakas, Thalia, RIP, Fetch, Waste and 2 not-important cards. T1 he plays Fetch, Lotus Petal and passes. T1 I think for a while and decide to play Karakas. T2 he thinks for a while, decides not to play around STP and entombs Grave Titan. I don't draw a STP and lose. He signaled he had no countermagic when he did it, which might not be true but let's assume it is.

So the question is - is not playing Karakas to try to bait a legendary card smarter? By playing it I'm basically forcing his hand to go for a non-legendary creature - which is not what I want as I have no way to beat Titan or Tide in hand. But not playing Karakas risks letting him t2 GBrand, draw 14 cards and leave it in play - and I can't resolve a t2 RIP after that. It also gives him room to misplay into t2 Iona, however.

I also was hoping he might have a Needle in hand and use his turn to respond to the Karakas + cantrip/filter instead of going off t2, or had an opening hand that was depending on self-discarding instead of Entomb.

What do you guys think?

Sounds like you're overthinking. Honestly, sometimes they (ie; reanimator) just "have it". I think everyone here has experienced the opposite: you drop Karakas and they scoop like a turn or two later because there's nothing they can do. Based on what I'm reading, do you believe the opponent also possessed Iona/Grisseldaddy? Again, at a certain point you can't overthink because T1 Karakas forces the game into "he has something that gets past Karakas or GG".

[Stevestamopz]

I've gone up to 3 Karakas and am playing Wingmare+Mangara as my one ofs. So zero beaters main, one Crusader in the board.

This may sound stupid, but I don't really see Crusader as a beater. Obviously he is an absolute boss-dog when he's holding any equipment, but I think of the card as being way more versatile than just that and yet another taxing effect for our opponent to fail at grinding through.

Care to share a full list?

[Koke_MTG]

I've gone up to 3 Karakas and am playing Wingmare+Mangara as my one ofs. So zero beaters main, one Crusader in the board.

Tonight I had an interesting decision vs Reanimator - I'm not sure if I made the right one. I'm on the draw post-board and have Karakas, Thalia, RIP, Fetch, Waste and 2 not-important cards. T1 he plays Fetch, Lotus Petal and passes. T1 I think for a while and decide to play Karakas. T2 he thinks for a while, decides not to play around STP and entombs Grave Titan. I don't draw a STP and lose. He signaled he had no countermagic when he did it, which might not be true but let's assume it is.

So the question is - is not playing Karakas to try to bait a legendary card smarter? By playing it I'm basically forcing his hand to go for a non-legendary creature - which is not what I want as I have no way to beat Titan or Tide in hand. But not playing Karakas risks letting him t2 GBrand, draw 14 cards and leave it in play - and I can't resolve a t2 RIP after that. It also gives him room to misplay into t2 Iona, however.

I also was hoping he might have a Needle in hand and use his turn to respond to the Karakas + cantrip/filter instead of going off t2, or had an opening hand that was depending on self-discarding instead of Entomb.

What do you guys think?

I think you should start with Wasteland in this situation. I do not like start a game against Reanimator playing turn 1 Karakas. You should do that only if he reanimate in his turn 1 and forces you to bounce an early daddy. In this situation I'd play as I said with Karakas + Thalia turn 2 probably.

Do you guys side in Ratchet Bomb against Reanimator?

[iatee]

Sounds like you're overthinking. Honestly, sometimes they (ie; reanimator) just "have it". I think everyone here has experienced the opposite: you drop Karakas and they scoop like a turn or two later because there's nothing they can do. Based on what I'm reading, do you believe the opponent also possessed Iona/Grisseldaddy? Again, at a certain point you can't overthink because T1 Karakas forces the game into "he has something that gets past Karakas or GG".

I think it's only overthinking in this particular situation because he had a t2 win. The question is whether forcing his hand towards a non-legendary creature is worth it if I can't beat a non-legendary creature and have decent game against a legendary creature. If I don't play Karakas he doesn't know if I have STP or Karakas in hand and might still consider going towards Gbrand/Iona over Titan.

[iatee]

This may sound stupid, but I don't really see Crusader as a beater. Obviously he is an absolute boss-dog when he's holding any equipment, but I think of the card as being way more versatile than just that and yet another taxing effect for our opponent to fail at grinding through.

Care to share a full list?

4 Thalia
4 Mom
4 SFM
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter
3 Revoker
2 Magus
1 Wingmare
1 Mangara
4 Vial
4 STP
1 Bskull / Jitte / SoFi
5 Fetch
3 Cavern
2 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Plateau
4 Wasteland
4 Port

Then the SB always has
2/3 Ethersworn
3 RIP
1 Containment Priest
1 Magus
1 Crusader
1-2 Sudden Demise
+ whatever random jank I want to test

I have been doing very well w/ this main.

[iatee]

Do you guys side in Ratchet Bomb against Reanimator?

I do. It eats Pithing Needle, Lotus Petals and zombie tokens. It feels pretty borderline, but just barely makes it.

[hill_giant]

I never ever play karakas against reanimator unless I absolutely need the mana from it or they've already seen my hand. In your example, you're trying to guarantee t2 rip without having to spend your turn bouncing griz. What do you think the odds are of him drawing 14 off of griz (in addition to the cards he already had) and hitting 0 force 0 daze? In that case, even if he makes griselbrand into your karakas, you're still almost certainly not resolving t2 rip, so there's no real reason to play into that. Leave him short on info and hope that he either misplays or has a hand where the correct play is hoping that you don't have karakas.

[iatee]

I was hoping to play around reanimate Gbrand, draw 14, cast Needle. Showing the Petal, he already was on a sure 3 mana t2 and so w/ Entomb/Reanimate just would need to have or draw one Needle - and with Entomb/Exhume would need Petal/Needle.

But I think you're right still. With zero knowledge it's not even wrong for them to play around STP more than Karakas given that we have more copies of STP. And the highest chance at a win comes from hoping for the misplay.

[Finn]

I definitely do NOT give away the fact that I am holding Karakas. They can own you with Iona, and the temptation to entomb her is great.

[iatee]

Ha well I'll take Finn's word as final, I'm sure you've played the match more than anyone.

[tescrin]

EDIT: The TL;DR version is Finn's post. I didn't see that. Below describes why you bluff STP and don't show Karakas in probably too-much theory crafting. But one of my best magic buddies started Legacy on reanimator so I've played it a ton. You need to worry more about answering the dudes first and letting them play against themselves. Then you lock them out later. If you have the T1 Tormod's/Cage or something, may as well mess with them by putting it out since it's not reactionary, but otherwise you definitely play it out like your hand is uninteresting for as long as you can fake it.

Tonight I had an interesting decision vs Reanimator - I'm not sure if I made the right one. I'm on the draw post-board and have Karakas, Thalia, RIP, Fetch, Waste and 2 not-important cards. T1 he plays Fetch, Lotus Petal and passes. T1 I think for a while and decide to play Karakas. T2 he thinks for a while, decides not to play around STP and entombs Grave Titan. I don't draw a STP and lose. He signaled he had no countermagic when he did it, which might not be true but let's assume it is.

So the question is - is not playing Karakas to try to bait a legendary card smarter? By playing it I'm basically forcing his hand to go for a non-legendary creature - which is not what I want as I have no way to beat Titan or Tide in hand. But not playing Karakas risks letting him t2 GBrand, draw 14 cards and leave it in play - and I can't resolve a t2 RIP after that. It also gives him room to misplay into t2 Iona, however.

I'd fetch for a land and make him get greedy by pretending to have StP. He'll want to go for Iona or Griselbrand then; allowing you to Karakas and put him into a mode where he thinks you have StP. If he does nothing, probably waste him and continue the bluff, or go for Thalia. Worry about RiP after the opening gambit as your "finisher." It's also a grand Show and Tell card to hold since you then answer the guy they put in and they never had the chance to counter it. Karakas is also a nice card for when they Show and Tell.

Again, you want them, in this case, to think you have the nuts and go for GB and drawing cards. They will draw 7 to sculpt and pass assuming he'll get plowed and they'll draw 7 more while staying at a comfortable life total, you'll karakas and he'll have to go off again. If you're lucky, they'll sculpt wrong because they think you have different cards than you do and they will either lack enough to counter you properly or they'll lack the ingredients to go off again yet. They may just go off 2-3 times and you'll never get the chance; but if they dump 7-15 life into griselbrand; they're already cutting themselves off of Reanimate and only Exhume is relevant to Entomb; making a lot of their cards dead if they bought your bluff. If they go for an Inkwell the second time but have to Exhume you may get a T3 to Thalia + Wasteland and put them in a tight spot.

Try to think along these lines of how to use their cards against them. (S&T, Reanimate, Griselbrand, and mana costs.)


I've never played it as D&T, but I have played it *a lot* as Maverick/Junk; and it was always about giving them less information. S&T you need to have your instant-speed karakas to not die; but reanimator doesn't have annihilator or haste. Deploying Karakas means you'll get Spouted/Ashen Riden, or similar. Let them think you have plow so that it's not profitable to slow roll you and punish them for getting greedy.

[ironclad8690]

Check out this baller.

[mistercakes]

Check out this baller.

i guess the main interest here is the lack of wastelands and the flagstones. ghost quarter seems great with mindcensor, but is it good enough?

[Morzas]

How should I board against Zombardment and Lands? General tips would also be helpful. If you're wondering about the 3x Wingmare and Flickerwisp, I removed one each for Mirran Crusaders because my meta has a lot of Gurmag Angler decks that run Dread of Night in the sideboard. This is my list:

Creatures
4 Mother of Runes
4 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Vryn Wingmare
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Phyrexian Revoker

Non-Creatures
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands
11 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Mishra's Factory

Sideboard

2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Sunlance
1 Sword of Light and Shadow

[Barook]

Since it's a budget solution, couldn't Dust Bowl find its way in there? It's only 13-14 tix and the deck already runs Flagstones.

As for Imperial Taxes, I went back to running Serra Avenger. The lack of decent beaters/flyers was annoying me and it always felt off somehow. Now it feels better balanced and more like D&T again.

4 Flooded Strand
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plateau
2 Plains
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas

4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Serra Avenger
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Imperial Recruiter

4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Batterskull

Sideboard
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
3 Sudden Demise
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Council's Judgment
2 Containment Priest
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Fiend Hunter

Kinda unsure if a 3rd Karakas is needed since it cuts into my red sources.

SoWaP is currently a flex slot which could easily be another (tutorable) creature. Medea from MtgSalvation swears on it, but I can't bring myself to cut Batterskull from the main. Maybe running 4 equips is now correct with all the Mentors etc. running around, similiar how TNN turned SoFaI into a MD stay - who knows. Testing will show if it's good enough or just too much equipment.

I'm also pondering how/if I could put Spellskite into the board. I've noticed that alot of decks not only bring in sweepers against us, but also more spot removal (notably Disfigure). Having a removal sponge for your creatures/equipment might be nice.

[iatee]

I understand missing Serra Avenger, but I don't understand SoWaP in any D+T build. If you're going to play two swords in your 75, Darkness and Light gives you lifegain + card advantage + the option to have pro-everything-but-green.

[iatee]

Spellskite is only worth it if there's enough infect around I think. It is very very good against infect, which is a pretty bad matchup.

U/R/X Delver decks are bringing in anti-artifact hate so even though it's a good blocker and eats bolts, it's only okay there, and that's not a match-up we need to dedicate many sb slots to anyway. Not so amazing against legacy burn especially when you don't have U mana.

Overall playing a two drop 0/4 that is just a worse-mom has its costs and a lot of the time it's better to just have two 2/2s than a 2/2 and a 0/4 that can eat the STP.

[Barook]

If you're going to play two swords in your 75, Darkness and Light gives you lifegain + card advantage + the option to have pro-everything-but-green.

Not saying that SoWaP is worth it (only testing can determine that), but that's the best case-scenario - SoLaS has some issues attached to it.

It's only CA if creatures happen to hit the GY. If your opponent runs StP (or Terminus), it does nothing. DRS is also a hard counter to the CA ability, with the attached malus of countering your life gain if they remove the targeted creature.