So has anyone's deck changed much since the DTT ban? My main is still basically the same but my side has changed slightly. I've dropped down to one Ethersworn Cannonist (1 Cannonist/1 Thalia split) and I'm highly debating dropping the Slaughter games altogether, as they're not near as effective against Sneak and Show from my experience. That seems to be the deck a lot of old Omni players are gravitating towards. Granted, it's still relatively fresh, so I haven't played a ton of games yet either, hoping someone here could share some experiences.
Also, it seems like DnT has gotten popular again, so I'm considering SBing in 1x Dread of Night as well. It's a tough call because I already play 2x Golgari Charms, which are more multi-purpose as it can be used against Elves, TNN, and various token strategies. Also moved back up to 3 leylines (was playtesting 2), but the consistency drop from going 3->2 was more than I expected. Lands is a real bitch to play against without leylines, thankfully don't run into it all that often.
I wouldn't play Dread of Night because of chalice. E Plague, Sulfur Elemental or Night of Souls Betrayal could be options?Originally Posted by RhoxWarMonk
I think the real question is either E. Plague or Sulfur Elemental. I think having one of those, with a Deluge and a Golgari Charm, are where I would want to be in the SB. I'm a bit torn between the Plague and Elemental, Plague is great and versatile against Elves and DnT, but a lot of what we do is already pretty good against them. Sulfur isn't good against Elves, but is insane against mentor, which is really where I think I'd like to be, as it turns that off so much, and is pretty much uncounterable. But at the same time, Elves is just scary with how explosive they can be.
Right now my SB is:
2 Thalia
2 Choke
1 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
1 E. Plague / Sulfur (Switching it out based on how much Elves I see)
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
3 Leyline of the Void
2 ???
Really I'm not sold on Choke and Slaughter games after the DTT ban, but I haven't had enough time to dig this deck out and play around with it. I see the Trinisphere in the top4 list from Prague this weekend, but again I don't think it's too great without heavy Omni (though I could see it replacing Slaughter Games, as it's good against Storm and Elves greatly. Are there any other decks where we want it?). Garruk Relentless will probably get in a slot, but I really don't know. I'm expecting tons of Miracles, Shardless, and DnT as the 3 most popular decks, but I'm trying to avoid overboarding against Miracles. Not too worried against Shardless, a lot of the MD is really good at splash hate against all their non-goyf threats, With Liliana only being the real fear that I have. This would possibly get a second Thoughtseize, but again I'm afraid of Overboarding against Miracles and Storm - is Thoughtseize worth it against Miracles? Is it good against Shardless?
I'm in full agreement with regards to Slaughter Games. It is effective against Sneak&Show, but Sneak&Show has yet to prove itself relevant again and whether Slaughter Games is backbreaking or not against them is debatable.
I'm with you on the issue of consistency when it comes to Leyline of the Void. I'd like to be able to go down to two and I've actually been rolling with only two for the past few weeks, but not having the out of "mull to Leyline" has come up more than once and it makes me hesitant to stick with such a low count.
Considering most of the Chalices should be coming out post-board, that interaction shouldn't really be a consideration. Dread of Night's biggest setback is itself. Death and Taxes, regardless of whether it gets more popular or not, isn't a terrible match-up. It can get troublesome in game one if they manage to hit multiple Mother of Runes and some aggressive Thalias, but otherwise Loam runs too much removal to handle and a lone Knight can sometimes be enough to clog up the board. There's just no reason to run something so specific as Dread of Night when something with broader application (Toxic Deluge Sudden Demise etc) will do the exact same job.
So, same suggestion as you, Dissection, but different reason.
I haven't played a ton of legacy since the ban, but I'm currently -2 canonists, +2 revoker in the board. If D&T is actually a deck you want cards for, Sulfur elemental is lackluster and e plague is worse. The deck has the strongest mana denial game in the format and you guys want to play 3 mana enchantments against it? If you want cards that need you to see like 6 mana sources to cast them, deluge is your best bet. Dread of Night is just better if you want something specific tho.
Here is some loam from the MKM thing in case you guys have not seen it.
Ignoring that Engineered Plague naming "Monk" does the exact same thing as Sulfur Elemental, if you ever have to make the choice of dedicating slots towards combating either Elves or Miracles, always pack against Elves.
...
"The best Thoughtseize is the one that's not boarded in" or some shit like that. Thoughtseize shouldn't be seen as a catch-all. It's for the match-ups where you have no interaction or where they're so fast that you need a turn one breather. If you find yourself frequently boarding it in against "fair" decks, you should change what you're doing.
Very much agree with this. I find I only board in Thoughtseize against combo decks that are too fast for me to interact with. It's seems decent against Sneak&Show or even Storm decks but I almost never board it in against Miracles/Delver. I'm not sure if it's correct to board in against Elves or not though, even if it's just to snag the Natural Order it might be worth it but I am a firm believer of not SBing in more than I need to. I already board in the charms, Canonist, TD and tabernacle for Elves.
Speaking of Sneak&Show, I have seen a few pop up here. Is Containment Priest a decent option against them? Is there something better I should be using instead? I am doubtful I'll dedicate anything towards it right away (maybe 1 slot, if any) but if it starts to rise in popularity, I'll certainly want to put in a few more to combat it.
Yes, but E. Plague is counterable, while the Elemental isn't, which is the advantage Elemental gives, while sacrificing being a huge card also in the Elves (and I guess Fish, but I haven't played against that in Legacy in a long time) matchups.
But as you make clear with the rest of the post, Miracles hate isn't short in this deck, and the Plague is just miles better (and harder to remove when there's not a Chalice out). I'm never happy with thoughtseize, but it was the only real slot where I felt I could have something against the grindy/disruption heavy Shardless/Jund matchups. I'm more convinced that I shouldn't be running it at all, as I know my play style leads to me frequently overboarding, and having it not there is going to help prevent that, when I can fit in more Combo hate.
I board Thoughtseize in from time to time against Elves depending on what the mainboard/sideboard looks like. I definitely wouldn't consider it a mainstay, but not having a turn one play against Elves really does blow chunks.
Containment Priest isn't great, but it does the job. Seeing as the decks we're currently discussing are Sneak&Show and Elves, it is worth considering. I've added one back into the sideboard. I wouldn't ever go above one copy and I wouldn't hesitate to cut it again if need be, but it deserves its slot for now.
p.s. While I'm have time to post, what are some cards that are effective against Esper Stoneblade? We have shittons of two-for-ones in the form of Bob and Liliana and Loam and Punishing Fire and whatever else, but Esper has Swords to Plowshares and Surgical Extraction and Snapcaster Mage and seems to ruthlessly shit on me any time they can start rolling. Any ideas on what could function as a guaranteed two-for-one? I've been toying around with a few Bloodbraid Elf concepts, but hitting a GSZ/Mox/Chalice feels reeeal bad.
I am trying to learn this deck I believe the most important part of playing this deck optimally is deciding when to dredge back Loam or just draw a card. That being said, I don't understand why Panfilow is dredging so aggressively.
7:25 is the first one. His opponent has 2 islands and a plains in play, all untapped. The previous turn he Loamed back Wasteland, Fetchland, and Tranquil Thicket. Why dredge here? Feels like he should take a draw step to try and find a creature, planeswalker, or Chalice. Possibly a confirmation bias here, but he ends up loaming 2 chalices and a punishing fire. He ends up playing a Liliana in the turn, was he already thinking ahead to her +1 activation? I still think this is not correct, since he has a wasteland in hand which he could just discard and loam back a different turn. Liliana ends up getting forced anyways.
For the rest of the game he loams every turn, presumably because he has a tranquil thicket. I'm guessing because tranquil thicket will net you a random card just like drawing the top of your library, and by loaming you can put stuff in your GY like punishing fires and more lands to loam back for value, so this makes sense.
Some unusual deckbuilding choices I saw- It seems he has Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage combo incorporated as well. What do you guys think of this? The stage/DD combo would seem to be a welcome addition to the deck, but the mana is already somewhat greedy as is. I think I would want to add a Volrath's Stronghold first.
The first time he dredged had to have been wrong. I can see that play if your hand has no gas in it and you are trying to hit up to 3 random lands vs a random card, but as we see he casts loam, gets it countered and shows that he already had a 2nd in hand. Maybe because he had 2 in his hand he decided to just go all in on it? Maybe he soul read a counter and wanted to "profitably" exchange it for the extra loam
Usually once you have 5 mana dredging + cycling is free but it took him surprisingly long to find gas off of it.
Thanks for the confirmation, I agree it really sucks not having a turn 1 play against elves but they're so resilient I only really feel it's a "win" if I snag a natural order or a glimpse out of their hand. Think i'll continue toying with this strategy a bit, there's certainly worse cards against Elves than Thoughtseize, even if it's not optimal.
Kinda my feelings as well, just having a hard time figuring out what to put in against S&S if not Containment Priest. Is there anything else even worth it in this slot?Containment Priest isn't great, but it does the job. Seeing as the decks we're currently discussing are Sneak&Show and Elves, it is worth considering. I've added one back into the sideboard. I wouldn't ever go above one copy and I wouldn't hesitate to cut it again if need be, but it deserves its slot for now.
As you said, BBE feels real bad cascading into Mox/Chalice/GSZ, so I'm not sure I'd run that card personally. I don't feel thoughtseize is overly strong here in this matchup either. Assuming they're on the TNN plan, I'd bring in Golgari Charms and the singleton Choke from my board, to go along with the Chalices and removal main this should hopefully be enough to keep them offline. You're correct that if they start rolling it's very hard to stop them but I don't find they can really get going on Chalice @ 1 w/Wasteland strategy, along with Charms to take care of TNN. Honestly, I can't really think of any 2 for 1's here, outside odd instances that Charms will hit multiple creatures... doubtful that's what you were thinking when you wanted a 2 for 1 guaranteed strategy lol. Completely spitballing here but maybe Hymn to Tourach has some use?p.s. While I'm have time to post, what are some cards that are effective against Esper Stoneblade? We have shittons of two-for-ones in the form of Bob and Liliana and Loam and Punishing Fire and whatever else, but Esper has Swords to Plowshares and Surgical Extraction and Snapcaster Mage and seems to ruthlessly shit on me any time they can start rolling. Any ideas on what could function as a guaranteed two-for-one? I've been toying around with a few Bloodbraid Elf concepts, but hitting a GSZ/Mox/Chalice feels reeeal bad.
After our car was broken and I just had the clothes I was wearing and my backpack (with 90% percent of my cards fortunately) with me, I decided I really had to go well in Legacy due to all this bad thing that happened.
Than went to Top 8 in Mkm series Prague :) :)
Lost my quarters really unfortunate though :/
My sideboard was packing some more unconvential choices, sporting both Garruk + Ajani and an Engineered Plague next to a Phyrexian Revoker. I cutted down Choke and Slaughter Games to one, too.
This deck definetly is the real deal right now!
Sorry to hear about the car troubleWould you mind posting your SB? I'd be very curious to see changes :)
Congrats on the finish as well, what did you play in the quarters?
I made a list of first world problems if anyone cares to assist. Below the list is my actual list. Mainboard hasn't changed since Worcester and is unlikely to unless someone comes up with a "woah shit!" include.
- How often do you guys find yourselves ending the game with combined arms as opposed to Knight/Scooze finishes? In other words, when your opponent reaches 0 life, is it because a 9/9 Knight swung across the battlefield or because you slowly whittled them away with Dark Confidant and Punishing Fire and a Deathrite Shaman?
Reason I ask is that I feel like all of my games are ending either by premature concession, Knight of the Reliquary beats, or Scavenging Ooze beats. There are of course oddball games where Knight ends up being a 2/2 and I am forced to win through overwhelmingly crafty methods, but winning through oddball beats isn't the norm, and I feel like this is one of the reasons I find myself struggling against an Esper XXX that manages to get rolling.
- In slight connection with the first question, what are some good alternative finishers? Must be something more than a big dumb beater (no shitty Thrun suggestions). Shouldn't be overly dependent on the graveyard (like Scavenging Ooze is). Being green for Green Sun's Zenith would be nice, but isn't mandatory.
This is again in the interest of being able to close games in a greater variety of ways. Qasali Pridemage makes for an amazing Watchwolf, but he's pretty inclined to die, so it's usually not enough. Garruk Relentless seems to have the best shot, but I'm looking for mainboard and sideboard suggestions.
- I'm back to having Boil in the sideboard. Which is a clear indication that I've run out of ideas. For reference, I'm perfectly happy with most of my sideboard. Boil and Oblivion Ring are just the cards that stand out as slackers.
25*Land
1*Forest
1*Barren Moor
3*Bayou
3*Grove of the Burnwillows
1*Karakas
1*Maze of Ith
1*Savannah
2*Scrubland
1*Taiga
2*Tranquil Thicket
4*Verdant Catacombs
4*Wasteland
1*Windswept Heath
13*Creatures
4*Dark Confidant
1*Scavenging Ooze
1*Deathrite Shaman
1*Gaddock Teeg
4*Knight of the Reliquary
1*Qasali Pridemage
1*Dryad Arbor
22*Other Spells
3*Liliana of the Veil
3*Punishing Fire
2*Green Sun's Zenith
2*Life from the Loam
2*Sylvan Library
3*Abrupt Decay
3*Chalice of the Void
4*Mox Diamond
Sideboard
1*Containment Priest
1*Ethersworn Canonist
2*Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1*Oblivion Ring
1*Engineered Plague
3*Leyline of the Void
1*Thoughtseize
1*Toxic Deluge
1*Boil
2*Golgari Charm
1*Wear // Tear
Sick fucking comeback, man.
Sigarda is zeenithable, cant be lilianad or plowed. Ofc she dies to CJ but all threats does more or less.
This is really janky, but has anyone tried Haakon?
I just vomited a little in my mouth.
I just hate the feeling when I loam away a creature that I needed
EDIT: What about a singleton worm harvest?
Thank you guys!
This was my sideboard:
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Thoughtseize
1 Slaughter Games
1 Golgari Charm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Ajani Vengeant
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Engineered Plague
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Phyrexian Revoker
I think it adresses maybe some of the problems I read about here.
For example Problems against Esper like iamajellydonut described. Her I really want to suggest u to test the Walkers. In Special Garruk Relentless. He is very strong against all kinds off control, really hard to handle and super flexible for a Walker (even making mini-zenith when flipped).
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