Planeswalkers and shardless agent are outclassed by Vampire Hexmage and a flying combo finish. I am completely convinced that stage/depths is the way to shore up bad matchups.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
The problems I have with shardless is that they attack all angles of the deck, they provide a fast clock with goyf, a grinding engine with shardless agent, sylvan library and ancestral, force of will to stop an early combo (naturally drawn they will be hard pressed but I don't usually do that), graveyard hate with drs and can even go big enough with jace if need be. The greedy versions even play basics or wasteland so you can't punish a good draw from them whatsoever.Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
I play only 1 depths 2 thespian's stage, are you playing more of each?
I feel I can basically only win vs them with combo unless they have a bad start and I like having some outs when they usually can threaten to finish the game within 5 turns.
Vampire hexmage fixing the planeswalker problem is actually interesting and I know the interaction itself. But I have overlooked that they will actually solve the problem itself. Unfortunately I like my little nether spirit so much I'm against the idea of playing more creatures, but if my 2 sideboard slots aren't able to handle planeswalkers I guess I'll give in to changing my deck.
I actually tend to like this matchup. Attack their mana, Innocent Blood or Disfigure their Deathrite Shaman and get a wasteland lock going as fast as possible. Discard takes counter magic allowing you to resolve spells. I usually don't care if they resolve a Ancestral Visions if they don't have enough lands to play what they draw, Liliana, Raven's Crime, and Loam are better at going long than they are. Cabal Pit is also great in this matchup.
I also play 1 depths and 2 stage.
I agree. Shardless need its mana.
The cards in its hands are dead without that.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
12 rack.
This is just an idea.
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 nether spirit
21 Swamp
4 wheel of torture
4 The Rack
4 Shrieking Affliction
3 Funeral Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Raven's Crime
4 Smallpox
3 pox
4 hymn to tourach
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Interesting, approach to it since I have had such a hard time vs shardless, I will try to focus more on this part, do you think it goes so far that you should mulliga into Wasteland or similar hate?
Also I think I asked this before but now that dig is bannad what is our bad match-ups?
In General I would say decks playing shardless Agent (food chain and shardless bug) and The really aggressive all in decks (though mostly a coinflip game there)
I will still take this stance since I haven't actually tried playing vs shardless with this "new" approach
Other then that I fel all match ups are pretty even or favored
If you curve out with enough lands you can screw just about any deck. T1 discard, t2 smallpox, t3 waste or loam. Shardless is trying to play the same grinding plan as us...but with more threats they are better at topdecking than us. We can't be focused on eeking out small advantage unless we curve out perfectly. Hard control is difficult against midrange decks. We gotta go combo on their ass (loam/crucible + waste or hexmage/stage + depths. A single topdecked shardless into Goyf/visions will be bad news.
Edit: the meta shifting is why I'm testing engineered plague over golgari charm. Charm had a small chance of killing omni if you can make them discard their counters (along with killing true name nemesis, young pyro tokens, and elves.) Bad matchups will still be burn and mid-range like shardless and jund, which is my opinion. We prey on the same decks as midrange but they are better against us.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Plague should be a staple in Pox just because it can kill top decked creatures and Extirpate a race. Token rush gets hindered as long as they're not angels. But, I'm running da Bombs and Kegs for dem bitches on top of 4 Engineered Plagues. Swapped out my lone Culling Scales for Extirpate #3 as I found myself nuking my Cursed Scrolls (doh). I should consider Noetic Scales as a Bridge replacement since it allows my Factories to attack through them. But it would bounce my Spirit and Tombstalker. Ah decisions decisions.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
In a DTT world I disagree. Golgari charm was superior as it could kill omniscience. The ban makes plague better. In loam pox it still fights for the 3 slot with deed and pulse, both of which have their pros and cons. I like deed only as a one-of in the main alongside a pulse, because as general cards they are good. However as dedicated swarm hate they are not anywhere near as good as plague.
Ratchet bomb is a consideration, but I feel in loam engineered explosives is superior and faster.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
EE is faster, but I find that killing biggies like Jace and other 4 drops needs bombs. I'm running a 2/2 split of Powder Keg and Ratchet Bomb currently and in my latest test, it worked just fine. I think EE would work better in a 3 color deck since the meta I think is now more geared toward slower mid range and 1-3 drops are more common, at least from what I've seen. Normally for Show and Tell decks, I discard them too fast and hard if they don't go off turn 2. Though Golgari Charm won't 'stop the topdecks' the way a plague would, it is an answer that Mono-B doesn't have access to. What we can use, if we can just stall for 3 turns, is the Plague Boiler.
Perhaps even, Nevinyrral's Disk from the old times.
I'm officially packing in 3-4 Pox now instead of my singleton. Being able to slam 4+ lands on the enemy's board with it is now my new modus operandi. My Miracles rival also agrees that by running more copies of the big kahuna Pox, the loss in land drops becomes very significant. The games we run seem less lop sided now and with 4 Pox, I'm running 20 LD cards, assuming Liliana's ultimate can go off. That and fetchland shenanigans (also Crop Rotation). Having more Poxes makes me smirk when they try to trick me with that garbage. I distinctly remember at the SCG Chicago event were someone Crop Rotated to dodge my Wasteland. Damn that moment ticked me off.
I've accepted that swarm decks will most likely face stomp me game 1, but I'm seeing them less and less now, so going Quad Pox seems the right call.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I like your approach for mono black. Unfortunately, I do not have access to chains of m, nether void, or the abyss. I think you habe answers for pws and tokens, I just have other answers. Hexmage kills pws, pulse and deed kill tokens.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
Ratchet Bomb and Powder Keg kills tokens faster, though Pulse can't be Pithing needled. It's a shame the Vaka Pox's Vindicate isn't used. Being able to nuke even more land must be unnerving for Miracles players. That thread has been dead for years now.
As explained before, Pox does have time to crank up Bombs and Kegs if the backup is appropriate. A recent game with Miracles had me, as a test, popping Bomb and Keg at 1 counter forcing him to place his SDT on top of the library. This was early game when I managed to land a Wasteland and a Sinkhole before hand. It essentially hamstrung his deck for four turns since he could only cast the top, spin the top, but not both on the same turn. He was stuck on 1 land for 4-5 turns and Liliana came online much earlier. I'm beginning to think running a single Buried Ruin in place of 1 swamp and a Crucible in place of 1 Pox may turn into a disgusting lock for a SDT user.
Oh, if you can Extirpate in response to a top spin activation, I now think that nailing the Fetchlands is the proper call. The less targets that dodge Sinkhole, the more dangerous we become. That and we can "top screw" them.
"top screw": noun. To cause Sensei's Divining Top to create very shitty draws over the course of 3 turns due to the inability to shuffle the library.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Extirpate is basically a LD in disguise sinces the opponent set up the condition for its use. That or cantrips are good targets. Kill whatever you see first:-)
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Myself i will try another approach on tuesday. 8-rack variants just want too race, which i like.
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
I have been testing this list to a good amount of success both in paper and on Cockatrice. I think I'm just about settled for the time being although I'm iffy on the Extirpates in the sideboard. Sometimes they just annihilate decks, but most of the time I just shoot the first decent target available. This list just feels right to me and Murderous Cut especially has come up clutch very often even if it's just to clear out the second Nether Spirit from the yard. I've been thinking about cutting one card in the board for a Ratchet Bomb, but honestly I'm not sure if it's worth it. What do you guys think?
Mainboard:
Land - 25
13 x Swamp
4 x Wasteland
4 x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 x Mishra's Factory
Instant - 5
4 x Dark Ritual
1 x Murderous Cut
Sorcery - 19
4 x Inquisition of Kozilek
4 x Hymn to Tourach
4 x Sinkhole
4 x Smallpox
3 x Innocent Blood
Enchantment - 2
1 x Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 x Nether Void
Artifact - 3
3 x Cursed Scroll
Planeswalker - 4
4 x Liliana of the Veil
Creature - 2
2 x Nether Spirit
Sideboard - 15
3 x Ensnaring Bridge
3 x Engineered Plague
3 x Leyline of the Void
2 x Pithing Needle
2 x Spinning Darkness
2 x Extirpate
So I built a UB Counterbalance Smallpox deck, I went 2-1 at a small local Legacy event with my only loss being mostly because of my misplaying.
The decks I played where very bad match-ups for Counterbalance so I sided them out 2 of the 3 rounds, so jury is still out on weather the Counterbalance part is good. The smallpox side is great though, having Jace, the Mind Sculptor next to Liliana of the Veil is one of my favorite things to do. Snapcaster Mage is amazing with Sinkhole and plays really well with Cabal Therapy. At one point I cast Snapcaster targeting Innocent Blood, sacrificed Snapcaster to therapy, then flashed back innocent blood. I also cast Sinkhole 5 times in one match with the help of snapcaster in addition to a Wasteland.
Counterbalance was the worst card in the deck but I am not sure if that is because it doesn't fit or because of the match-ups I played. I'll keep you posted if Counterbalance-Smallpox is a real thing, for now I believe UB Pox definitely has a lot of potential.
Oh noes!
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Actually, the flashback effect of Snappy dude lasts until end of turn.Oh noes!
Thus:
1) you can play snap targetting IB.
2) Once Snap is resolved (and IB can be flashbacked), sacrifice Snap to cabal therapy
3) Finally play IB.
Or How to get full value of everything...
Yeah, the UB Extirpate Pox deck I'm working on in new and developmental does this as well, not many lines of play fill you with such sinister joy as flashing back a Smallpox, but only after a Cabal Therapy. What were your matchups when CB was bad?
I played against 2 Aether Vial Decks, Death and Taxes and Goblins, if they don't cast their spells then Counterbalance can't do it's thing.
I might try to run Steel Sabotage because Pithing Needle is annoying, hitting Liliana, Jace, Cursed Scroll, and Sensei's Top in my list. But I have been trying to build it as a tap out control deck, I never liked decks that have to choose between keeping up mana and progressing the board.
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