[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[.dk]

Props for an awesome finish; great meeting you in person! Thoroughly enjoyed hearing "some guy is playing this weird like...instant kill reanimator deck" all weekend around the hall.

Thanks dude! Was awesome meeting you too! Hopefully I'll see you again soon... like in a week and a half!

About to click open the report now; should be another fun read.
On the Mentor - I realize different deck but I did watch Losett kill his opponent this weekend (on meathooks of all things) from like 22 or something in a single swing by flipping two tops a bunch of times

Yeah, exactly. The card is super strong, especially with a couple of SDT. Rituals into Top Flips and casts is just bonkers

/edit: replying to Kai's other post too

[phazonmutant]

Oh man. I thought I was set on my deck for the GP... Congrats to .dk!

What are you guys thinking for a 75 with Mentor? Definitely Jace? What sort of anti-hate? It seems like Miracles has a problem dealing with early kills, so is Mentor really the right plan against them given how much of a problem Counterbalance is?

.dk - thanks for posting your goldfish results! Very interesting. From anecdotal experience playing with Reanimate, I believe it's not correct to go for it after Reanimating, which corroborates your data.

I was so intrigued by the data I whipped up a little analysis spreadsheet. Nothing fancy, mostly just doing some marginal analysis with charts. Check it out here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Chart preview:

[Koby]

What are you guys thinking for a 75 with Mentor?

core list with 2 LDV, 1 CMox

Side
4 Monastery Mentor
1 flex (Island or white dual)
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Pithing Needle
2 Serenity
2 Dread of Night
2 Surgical Extraction

[.dk]

Thanks Greg! I'll check out your spreadsheet when I get home. :) I still want to get more data on the draw now too, as the new mulligan rule really does make things better.

For a mentor configuration, I'd start similar to Koby. I would probably run my NJ main deck with Tundra, actually. Sideboard something like...

4 Mentor
3 SDT
1 land
3 pithing needle
2 chain of vapor
2 serenity

Or something like that anyway. flusterstorms or surgical is nice against combo, but so is SDT and plan on grinding them out. Different approach to that matchup than Koby's board. I'm not sure you need dread of night on a mentor plan either, but could be wrong. I'm also rather biased towards SDT and it goes super well with Mentor. Just needs some testing I guess.

[Acclimation]

Thanks Greg! I'll check out your spreadsheet when I get home. :) I still want to get more data on the draw now too, as the new mulligan rule really does make things better.

For a mentor configuration, I'd start similar to Koby. I would probably run my NJ main deck with Tundra, actually. Sideboard something like...

4 Mentor
3 SDT
1 land
3 pithing needle
2 chain of vapor
2 serenity

Or something like that anyway. flusterstorms or surgical is nice against combo, but so is SDT and plan on grinding them out. Different approach to that matchup than Koby's board. I'm not sure you need dread of night on a mentor plan either, but could be wrong. I'm also rather biased towards SDT and it goes super well with Mentor. Just needs some testing I guess.

Dread of Night is real good if you like winning against Death and Taxes.

Mentor plan is to dodge all of the hate- great against miracles, random chalice/leyline of the void decks. I don't think it's worth the slots versus D&T, since they can flood the board a bit easier than us. I would much rather bring in DoN, Needle, and Chainz and fight them on that axis over trying to manplan them.

If anything, you could probably cut Serenity, since against the decks we would want it, you can bring in Mentor and bring the beats, but being able to blow up all of the Leylines or Chalices makes our lives easier. I've also found myself bringing in Serenity versus Burn, since most of their hate (at least, the hate burn in my area runs) are either artifact or enchantments, so serenity does a lot of work.

Top is definitely insane with Mentor, but our deck does have inherent synergies with Mentor. I'm thinking Top might be win more.

The other cut would be to Surgical Extraction. I do like Surgical, since combo is prevalent in this area, so sniping a combo piece with discard and extracting it can give us time to win the topdeck war. Similarly, when brought in against control decks, it gives us information on their sideboard plans, for which we can alter our g3s with. And it's free, so extra triggers from Mentor.

It all boils down to personal preference, and how comfortable you feel against certain match-ups. I know I don't want to leave home without Surgical, Serenity, nor Dread of Night, so I'm not willing to cut them to add Top. Not saying Top is bad, but I would rather cripple my opponent and then continue onward with my game plan over trying to add recovery from opposing disruption/ get more mileage from my Mentors.


As for Mentor plan vs Miracles

They have issues versus the quick kill, but the idea is that they have a good amount of hate post sideboard, so swapping to Mentors changes the axis on which we fight them, and can catch them off balance.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I hate the idea of playing top, because I always want to Needle it vs. Miracles.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Darkgobs]

Dread of Night is real good if you like winning against Death and Taxes.
[...]
As for Mentor plan vs Miracles
They have issues versus the quick kill, but the idea is that they have a good amount of hate post sideboard, so swapping to Mentors changes the axis on which we fight them, and can catch them off balance.
[...]

1) Mhhh, and let's say a third game must be played; would we want to go back to combo or rather stay with the mentor plan?

2) And asside from Miracle, against what deck do we want to go for the mentor board, and thus avoid their hate?

EDIT: 3) would a couple of other creature asside Mentor be a good idea? Like Gurmag or something like that? Or Bob?

[.dk]

Dread of Night is real good if you like winning against Death and Taxes.

Mentor plan is to dodge all of the hate- great against miracles, random chalice/leyline of the void decks. I don't think it's worth the slots versus D&T, since they can flood the board a bit easier than us. I would much rather bring in DoN, Needle, and Chainz and fight them on that axis over trying to manplan them.

If anything, you could probably cut Serenity, since against the decks we would want it, you can bring in Mentor and bring the beats, but being able to blow up all of the Leylines or Chalices makes our lives easier. I've also found myself bringing in Serenity versus Burn, since most of their hate (at least, the hate burn in my area runs) are either artifact or enchantments, so serenity does a lot of work.

Top is definitely insane with Mentor, but our deck does have inherent synergies with Mentor. I'm thinking Top might be win more.

The other cut would be to Surgical Extraction. I do like Surgical, since combo is prevalent in this area, so sniping a combo piece with discard and extracting it can give us time to win the topdeck war. Similarly, when brought in against control decks, it gives us information on their sideboard plans, for which we can alter our g3s with. And it's free, so extra triggers from Mentor.

It all boils down to personal preference, and how comfortable you feel against certain match-ups. I know I don't want to leave home without Surgical, Serenity, nor Dread of Night, so I'm not willing to cut them to add Top. Not saying Top is bad, but I would rather cripple my opponent and then continue onward with my game plan over trying to add recovery from opposing disruption/ get more mileage from my Mentors.


As for Mentor plan vs Miracles

They have issues versus the quick kill, but the idea is that they have a good amount of hate post sideboard, so swapping to Mentors changes the axis on which we fight them, and can catch them off balance.

I don't know - Death and Taxes is really strong against our main plan. Karakas, StP, Thalia, Revoker, and the errant Flickerwisp are all really strong. Dread of Night also doesn't deal with Revoker or Canonist out of their board either, so it still can be rather difficult. Also, for what it's worth, Dread of Night is real bad with Mentor. For Death and Taxes, I was thinking you want both Mentor and Tops, actually. Reason being that you can actually out swarm them pretty quickly. Mentor gets out of control stupid fast - and many of their hate pieces don't do much against it. Even with Canonist out, you can Ritual and then flip and cast tops a couple of times to make a bunch of guys. You can also spin in response to Ports which helps you keep filtering, something that Ponder can't do if you're down to 1 land.

/edit:

2) And asside from Miracle, against what deck do we want to go for the mentor board, and thus avoid their hate?

I think you do this against most Deathrite/Counterspell decks. Shardless, Team America, etc. You stop caring about Deathrite ruining your day, and Liliana looks very silly against Mentor.

[Whitefaces]

Awesome report and nice finish. I've not played an unfair deck in a couple of years and I'm close to ordering some g-daddies! Sacrificing children has gotta be a bunch of fun too.

[Richard Cheese]

Alright so how many people are actually planning on rocking Grizzlebees at SeaTac? This could be a thing.

[Koby]

I'm a little verklempt. I tried the Mentor plan, and it failed catastrophically.

Against Shardless, expecting Cages, Meddling Mage, and DRS - I took out half the reanimation combo for Mentors. I then proceeded to draw all 4 Mentors before I drew a 2nd land. Chalk that up to variance. In Game 3 I resolved a Mentor, but my opponent had Swords to Plowshares (???). Unclear what this means from this matchup. Won G1 on a discard Griselbrand, reanimate on t2 with no resistance.

Against Miracles, I once again am able to combo outright (Turn 1 Therapy for Griselbrand, attempt Reanimate -> FOW, then LDV into another reanimation and get there on turn 3). G2 and G3, I take out the entire combo and go with Mentor plan (-8 reanimation -2 LDV -1 GB -1 Emrakul -1 Probe, +4 Mentor +1 Scrubland +2 Needle +2 Serenity +2 Chain of Vapor +2 Surgical), but cannot resolve any Mentors. My opponent's hand both games was FoW, CB, Jace, Stp/Flusterstorm, and appropriate lands. In G3, I played 4 Brainstorm and 3 Ponder, and found jack shit. Again, variance is a bitch.

Sample size is woefully low: 4 matches, 11 games. All Game 1's are wins.

Perhaps the 15th land should be Cavern of Souls?

[Richard Cheese]

Perhaps the 15th land should be Cavern of Souls?

I actually thought about this...could also make Bob a strong contender in the Top spot as Mentor fuel? I'm wondering if over the course of the game how Bob beats + extra spells compares to Top flipping tricks for damage output, especially in a deck that's light on lands.

[.dk]

Ah yeah, I like Cavern a lot there. That makes a lot of sense.

Shitty results there - that's disappointing. :( What all were you boarding in against Miracles in addition to Mentors?

/edit:

One thing I was thinking about is how it is so easy to overboard with the maindeck plan. That isn't the case with Mentors though, as the cards are less dependent on a working combo engine - they can stand by themselves a bit more. So that can allow you to board more cards in without having to worry about diluting the combo too much. Some cases, maybe you want to leave some of the reanimation in, maybe other cases you end up taking just about all of it out.

[Koby]

FWIW, against Miracles opponent, he had Karakas turn 3 in one game, and Containment Priest turn 2 the other. blahblah Variance Blahblah BooHoogland blah.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Lmao @ Koby, BooHoogland, hilarious.

I like the Bob idea way better than tops, and really like Cavern, as Jace, Mentor, and Bob are all human.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[alaska]

Alright so how many people are actually planning on rocking Grizzlebees at SeaTac? This could be a thing.

Maybe. I'm still 50/50 between Tin Fins & Reanimator.

Feels like Reanimator will be more resilient and better equipped to fight DRS (I run Show and Tell), but I have more experience (and admittedly more fun/am more relaxed) with good old onions.

The mentor plan is interesting though...may have to pick some up. But there's so little time left for testing.

[phazonmutant]

Alright so how many people are actually planning on rocking Grizzlebees at SeaTac? This could be a thing.

I put it together and goldfished well past my bedtime. Damn it. I might. Going to upload my data when I get home. Was trying out Tops main, cutting a LDV and the Tendrils. They felt good, and I didn't miss the Tendrils.

[.dk]

Really? Cutting LDV and Tendrils? When I board them in vs. Storm, I was boarding in 3 Tops for 1 LDV, 1 Ponder, and... something else. Maybe another Ponder? But I can't remember what off the top of my head. I liked having the tutor available still, and SDT and Ponder fill similar roles - slow search engines.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

I'm pretty much 100% on Reanimator this time. I agree it's more resilient as well as almost as fast, and it's more forgiving and capable of going longer.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[alaska]

I put it together and goldfished well past my bedtime. Damn it. I might. Going to upload my data when I get home. Was trying out Tops main, cutting a LDV and the Tendrils. They felt good, and I didn't miss the Tendrils.

This will probably be answered in greater detail with your data, but generally speaking, did you like the tops? I've toyed with the idea of picking some up for this deck, but thought they'd be too slow/mana intensive.

Not sure I agree with cutting tendrils; call it a security blanket, but there's a relevant non-zero number of times where tendrils has gotten the job done for me where attacking could not. Thoughts on cutting both LDV for tops? Or 1 LDV and 1 Ponder maybe?