Reprisal sounds awesome for the sideboard, but I was hoping to have a more versatile removal spell for game one. Engineered explosives fits, but I just can't justify running it. I mean, it wipes out a lot of threats, but also wipes out yours. I know Bardo runs it and it seems to do well for him. It is just a matter of playing around it, knowing you have it in your deck?
I think maybe my problem is I'm looking for a removal spell that doesn't exist...
Engineered Explosives is also an excellent choice. I play 2 MD as well. Trust me, you will not mind losing a Werebear if you have a goose and an enforcer that can recover and beat face. There is no shortage of creatures in this deck that can make up for a lost bear. My deck hasn't really been horribly devistated by Jotun Grunt. Maybe its Mental Note, maybe its Portent, maybe its Explosives...I dont know, but that little bitch will never make me scoop!Originally Posted by Solpugid
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Threads of Disloyalty seems promising because creature control is always better than removal. Its blue so it also pitches to FoW. You dont need to worry about having white mana for it. The ability to steal an opposing Werebear or even the dreaded Grunt would be amazing in the mirror match. Imagine forcing your opponent to swords their own grunt? The only slop I see is the sorc speed. But its not like you dont play 7-8 free counterspells.
Reprisal is nice but there are so many creatures in Legacy it doesnt kill. It does kill Enforcer, Fledgling, Grunt, and Negator, but thats about it.
Now playing real formats.
And exalted angel, and a pumped-up goblin piledriver, and sea drake, and werebear. I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm just saying that as a sideboard card it has a lot of good targets.
On another note, I'll try out two explosives in my build and see how I like them. I suppose i should have tested them already, though.
My 2 cents about Threads of Disloyalty; It is Sorcery speed, rough in this deck. It costs three, also rough. The big problem is that it's double Blue. There are usually only three cards in the deck that require this.
The other problem is that there are way more targets for, say Reprisal, than Threads. It can give a much larger swing, but that matters little when Akroma is swinging on turn two. Or an Myr Enforcer on turn three. It also gives the option of naming Swords with Meddling Mage
I think Explosives is the best of the lot, but I have tested Threads, and as tight a sideboard as Threshold runs, I can't see it.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
How is this a problem for a deck that plays all blue produceing lands or lands that get blue produceing lands(with the exception of the forest and if you play it, the plains)? Call me crazy but I dont think thats a big problem.
@Reprisal: In what match ups would you rather Reprisal over Radiant's Judgement?
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Once your in the only way out is in a wooden box.
Really, just try the Explosives; they're nutz. I've been running them for more than two years in this deck and haven't dropped them yet. Since April I've had one in the maindeck and one in the sideboard--and they're really good, wherever you run them.
EE, Threads, and/or Reprisal... wow.
EE I have used forever as a metagame card. It's been doing very well for me. The fact that the mirror, or something random pops up makes it godly in so many match ups.
Threads and Reprisal look promising. I'm going to give it a shot.
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Has Condemn been considered as alternate removal. Granted it doesn't permanently get rid of the critter but putting it on the bottom of the library is pretty close.The life loss could be a problem but hey you run Swords.
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It's a problem because this deck under optimal conditions rarely has more than three lands on the table. Since against almost any Aggro deck, at least one of these will be a Basic, it means you lose the ability to even bluff a Counterspell. No, it's not a big problem on it's own, but it is one of many.
And since I only consider Reprisal as a sideboard card, I would choose it over a card costing one more every time.
EDIT:@Bardo: Since you run a version of the deck that is dependant on playing Mental Note, how often do you find your singletons milled? I agree about the overall applications of Engineered Explosives, but with only one maindeck(and only one Enforcer), I wonder how often it is either undrawn or milled.
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Explosives really is great vs. a lot of decks. I've been playing 2 SB since, well, since i started to build this deck.
Another card I recently ran into: Worship. It's not a solution for the grunt, I know, but for a lot of other deck, it certainly works well. Vindicate, Humility and hardcounters are the only things you have to fear with a Mongoose + Worship. I've been planning to run 1 copy of it mainboard, mainly 'cause I didn't want to make room for it in the sideboard. The advantage of running one random copy is that there's no good sideboard option for the opponent. Is he packing enchantment removal, he has 2 or 3 dead cards. Isn't he packing it, you will have an additional win condition.
What do you guys think of this random option?
It does happen, which is why I'm running the two basic Islands--by far, the most important basic in the deck (but regardless of MN, 2 Islands just feels right). Anyway, I've dredged Enforcers and EEs away before but have gone on to win those games anyway.
There are few matches--game 1 anyhow--where you absolutely need Enforcer or EE (my only nonland maindeck singletons), I think you can go down to 0 in the maindeck of both and still pull out most of matches.
In games 2/3 where you really want EE and Enforcer, the mirror let's say, then you're not dredging singleton's there either and the basic land isn't a problem since hardly any Thresh decks run Wasteland, etc. In fact the only "land destruction" you may run into is Stifle.
Basically, you really can't be afraid of dredging stuff, for the reasons explained very well here:
Magical Myth #1: Milling Away Good Cards
"John is playing Dredgeatog against Affinity. He lost the first game, but in the second game he's managed to stabilize at a healthy sixteen life against an unimpressive attack force of Frogmite and Blinkmoth Nexus. Both players have no cards in hand. John decides to use this opportunity dredge up his Life from the Loam. He has a couple of fetchlands and a Barren Moor in the graveyard, so this choice is well-justified.
“'Dredge my Life from the Loam,'” John announces. The cost of dredge Millstones away, in order, Smother, Counterspell, and Counterspell.
“'Ugh!'” he says. “Look at all that juice! Worst dredge ever. Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam.”
"John plays Life from the Loam, cycles the Barren Moor, and draws Pernicious Deed. He slams down the enchantment, destroys his opponent's entire board, and wins the game a couple of turns later with Psychatog.
"Meanwhile, in a parallel universe, the exact same game of Magic is taking place… Except in this one, John decides not to dredge that Life from the Loam. Instead, John draws the Smother that is on top of his library. The Affinity player draws and plays a Cranial Plating, attaches it to the Frogmite, and attacks for seven damage.
“'Ouch!”' John thinks. “I could really use a Pernicious Deed about now.” John draws Counterspell – the same Counterspell that was milled away by Life from the Loam in the alternate universe. “Bummer,” he says. “That's not a Deed.”
"The Affinity player draws and plays an artifact land, so John takes eight damage. He enters his draw step at a precarious one life and rips another Counterspell. Facing certain death, John extends his hand in defeat, signs the match result slip, and flips over the top card of his library – just to see what was coming up next.
"Pernicious Deed.
"He slaps his forehead. “Of course it was the next card. God, I hate Magic.”
“'Thanks a lot, Life from the Loam'” indeed.
"My point is this: Milling away “good cards” means nothing over the course of your average, medium-length game of Magic. All that matters in most games is the specific card waiting on top of your library when you reach your draw step. Since your deck is randomized, you have just as good a chance of drawing any one of your cards in any one of your draw steps.
"Yes, it's demoralizing when you Mental Note away two cards you really wanted. But, it's no reason to get angry and think about cutting the Mental Note entirely from your deck. The Note had a chance to peel away two lands you didn't need and move the card you were looking for from “four draw steps away” to “right on top.” People tend to remember the bad mills they get, and overlook the good ones. Unless you're setting up your deck with cards like Sensei's Divining Top, it's all completely random.
"A lot of people were afraid to play Commune with Nature during Kamigawa Block Limited. “What if I put my Dance of Shadows on the bottom of my deck? That would suck!” Well, what if your Dance of Shadows is already on the bottom? That turn 1 Commune is the only way you'll ever see it.
"Seriously, folks, don't freak out about this stuff.
"For the sake of thoroughness, I will mention that Milling away good cards is relevant in very specific situations. It becomes an issue, for example, when you remove one-ofs from your library that you were planning on tutoring for. It's an issue when you're playing a very long war of attrition in which victory by decking may come into play. It matters when your deck has a very small number of threats, all of which you must fight to keep in your deck (In the Flores Blue mirror match in Standard, for example, you don't want to be Milling away any of your creatures for any reason. If you lose copies of your Meloku, Jushi Apprentice, and Keiga, you might find you are left with no ways to win).
"A majority of the time, however, Milling past random unknown cards doesn't hurt you one bit. Don't worry about it!"
Last edited by Bardo; 09-21-2006 at 06:27 PM.
Thank you for your, as always, well thought out reply. I am familiar with the both the article, and it's application. I have played more games with Life from the Loam in a control deck than I care to adimit.
More directly to the point; Why would you choose to run a card that while is potentially game-breaking when properly applied, you statisically have little chance to use?
A Visions, or Brainstom can set up a Mental Note to avoid this, so the mill effect itself may be inconsequential, but with the relatively limited amount of cantrips run in your version of the deck, the chance of milling, and the fact that the card is only a one-of, I would be more concerned with a potentially wasted slot or two than fear or dredging my only out.
It's not that I consider this a bad strategy, and I'm certain you have run through almost every possible scenario with this deck. I was more forming the opinion that you could take more advantage of Game one if you had access to an additional copy of a card like Explosives or Enforcer, which give such a large swing against a mulititude of decks.
Last edited by Parcher; 09-21-2006 at 02:43 PM.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
I run two enforcers maindeck, and I wouldn't even consider dropping one. This may be due to my metagame (very aggro and deadguy heavy), but I absolutely love him.
I'll also be trying engineered explosives as a 2-of maindeck to see if I like it. I'll be sure to let you know how my testing turns out.
I'm no mathematician, but with the deck's drawing power, you find the singletons far more than you'd think.
I'm running 12 cantrips, starting from 16 a year ago (and 14 sometime in the middle there) and you still see a ton of cards in your deck. SV and Brainstorm/fetch moves you through your deck quickly and MN essentially makes the deck a 56-58 card deck alone. Mathematically, I really can't explain it, but you see the 1-ofs frequently. Though I'm having a hard time explaining the phenomenon. :)
@ Solpugid - I think you can go down to 0 Enforcers and still do well. Going back to my first article on the deck (written in early December 2004), you can see I was running 3 for the same reason you mentioned.
But I've learned that the deck is still really strong without them. And I'm surprised by the amount of times I sideboard out my only maindeck copy. I think this position is also validated by Summersberger's First Place GP: Lille deck which didn't run any guys that cost more the 2 mana (i.e. no Enforcer/Dragon).
Mental Note does little to help you find singleton cards except to trash those cards from Brainstorm that are bad. It essentially draws 1 random card.
Nonetheless, I stand by what I said earlier: I find the singletons in my hand far more often than you'd think.
I think what Parcher was trying to get at is that finding the singletons "more often than you'd think" isn't necessarily better than finding them more often than that. On the other hand, if seeing the cards more often would actually be bad for some reason, it's very possible you shouldn't be running any copies at all.
The bottom line is that unique singletons are very difficult to justify as optimal, even in a deck with velocity.
I completely agree with Bardo here and actually came to the same conclusion spereatly. I love the two one-ofs and would never drop to 0 or bump up to one. At least not in this meta.
My reasoning for 1-of EE and Enforcer goes something like this:
I'm running a deck with 17-18 land. If I run enough draw to get 4 mana reliably, then I'm running enough draw to find a one of somewhat reliably. Also, there are virtually no matchups which hinge on either of these cards.
Also, these two cards are often dead, unneeded (namely in the combo matchup) or uncastable. That's where the shuffle and scry effects come in handy. When I bury a one of, I'm unlikely to see it again. What's even more useful are the 6 mill effects I run. If you can set up a mill of a one of, you never need to worry about it popping up again.
I don't know that this is 100% and it may vary from meta to meta, but it's worked very well for me at least.
I run 2 Mystic Enforcers, and 2 EE. I also play 4 Mental Note. I have been doing really well at my local tournaments with this build. I win a lot of games because I draw into both of my Enforcers. It feels awesome to beat your opponent with 2 Enforcers and a goose and/or a bear. Mental Note is simply amazing! I play 4 MN and 2 portent. It works really well for me..
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