So, I have an opinion on Firebolt that some people may disagree with, and that's fine. I get that it has flashback, which is a nice touch. But in a situation where you're flashing it back for five mana (assuming it doesn't get eaten by Deathrite Shaman first), I really think you should be in position to try to win the game or lock an opponent out. Moon effects can slow the deck some inadvertently when Sol-lands are only tapping for a single red. I just see more overall usefulness in Forked Bolt against the decks where Firebolt has applicability - in the current meta. You're still getting the two-for-one early on without having to expend five mana mid game on a Shock.Originally Posted by NathanS2k
The goal of these cards should be to slow the opponent down early enough so you can stabilize and combo out, and most aggressive builds right now in Legacy use the first two to three turns to establish board presence. Forked Bolt just seems so much better in the first few turns where the game is in its most critical stages. At EE3, I was wishing I had Forked Bolt over Lightning Bolt a majority of the time, because in the times where a planeswalker like Liliana is ticked down to sacrifice a creature, I can always finish her off with Forked Bolt just as well. Jace dies to Blast effects, so I wasn't even worried about that. There weren't any three-toughness creatures I could locate where Bolt would have mattered - the vast majority were stuck at one or two toughness, having me clamoring for the two for one early on - punishing shaky keeps.
Infect was another match-up that, although I won, Forked Bolt would have shined against. Noble Hierarch is a card that is deceivingly seeing more play. Being able to wipe that out in addition to other mana creatures like Elves and the like not only gives you inherent card advantage without the extra investment, but also keeps opponents pinned under Blood Moon early on. I get that both have their own distinct utility, it's just that the decks where I'd bring Firebolt in against I would much rather have a turn one or two Forked Bolt to clear the board and leave available resources up to represent Blast, Top mana or the win in the mid game.
My 2 cents:
I'm basically in agreement with all the other advice already given. I wouldn't play CoP:Red, as a: you will never progress your board because you have to leave mana open every turn, and b: burn decks often play pithing needle, which they will probably bring in to shut off your combo. If you wanted to play one card that could have game against burn, I would probably still play Sphere of Law. It's amazing against burn, and also has game against goblins, belcher (who win more often with Empty the Warrens) and any young pyromancer deck. It is a little slower to get down. But once it's on the board you will be in good shape.
As for spellskite, I am definitely a fan of the card. I just would never consider it a SB card. I guess that also works if you are playing against decks where you really want more protection or against infect.
I agree with others above that firebolt could be upgraded. But this is just a matter of personal preference more than anything. I would definitely at least split them with another card that can clear the board better, as mentioned above.
I still really like canonist and actually still play it in the main, as it's so good against STORM, elves, and show and tell decks, all of which are very popular right now. Having said that, I do take it out a lot in other MUs. I just think that you have to have at least one really good main deck card against STORM, and I like canonist over revoker right now. The rest seems fine, although I also agree that either assemble the legion or another planeswalker would probably be good to bring in against Miracles and such. I've actually decided to go with 2 Koth, as I am on the beatdown plan against Eldrazi decks at this point, and Koth hits a lot harder and faster than assemble. You are also correct in that enchantment removal is much more readily available in Miracles than Koth removal, although just be wary of monks coming at you.
I haven't seen any discussion on the 4th place list from the BIGMAGIC tournament in Japan. Its Mono-Red with a Goblin Rabblemaster and 2 Dead//Gone. What are peoples though on this list?
http://www.bigmagic.net/bmo05/legacy/03.html
Rablemaster is good for a beatdown, they work well in stompy decks. Dead//gone is another useful removal but it doesn't generate card advantage. I'd much rather have a ratchet bomb or sudden demise or slice and dice in that slot. Looks like he tuned his list well to that meta
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What do you guys think about Sudden Shock instead of Firebolt?
It's very good versus infect/miracles/pyromancer/elves/D&T. So if that's where you were bringing in firebolt it's a fine substitution and in some cases better.
It's what I've been using and I might never look back. It's been very good.
I don't know about everyone else but I keep getting painter's servant surgically extracted. I wouldn't mind trying that rabblemaster, I definitely think we need some good threats post board with so much shardless around (the deck that keeps surgical-ing me)
Since moon is good, why not stick to koth?
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I love koth but the reason I see to try rabblemaster is that he can be found with recruiter whereas there's really not a good way to find koth. I imagine koth is better but rabble could be okay...Just realized rabbles makes welder attack. all of a sudden I hate it.
I don't like the idea of Rabblemaster messing with Welder
Getting a Moon or Magus into play is super critical for the Shardless matchup.... Like it really doesn't matter if they take your painters if they can't cast any more spells...
I also don't know about Rabblemaster...There are better aggressive creatures.
I guess this is up to debate since if there were better aggressive creatures, they would have seen play. The deck has sort of always been lacking an efficient beater that could present a serious clock. I can't think of anything outside Rabblemaster, Siege-Gang Commander and that flipping werewolf-dude who pumps your other dudes. Since those still don't quite seem to get the job done, I started playing two Jitte in SB to deal with small creature decks and to make your army of 1/x's kill faster. Historically Koth has been the most aggressive card in the deck. If solid beaters exist, by all means let me know. It's one of the missing pieces from the deck to me. Siege-Gang Commander is very nice but 5 mana is rough. Could it just be that the new, cheaper Nalaar-family is the better board clogger/shooter here?
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If you have turn 1 moon effect that's great but if not they have basics to fetch for, drs, and abrupt decay. Moon doesn't always beat them. They can still just make a bunch of goyfs and kill you sometimes if you don't represent a fast clock. Also what creatures are you thinking about? I can't think of any others worthwhile other than perhaps mom and dad
Last edited by Mapson; 11-04-2015 at 08:51 AM.
This list recently Top 8'ed a 99-person tournament.
For reference:
// NAME : Painter
// CREATOR : Claus Nielsen
// FORMAT : Legacy
1 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
2 [C14] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [KTK] Bloodstained Mire
5 [UNH] Mountain
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
2 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
3 [C14] Goblin Welder
4 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [9E] Blood Moon
3 [4E] Red Elemental Blast
4 [5E] Pyroblast
4 [TSP] Sudden Shock
SB: 2 [SOM] Koth of the Hammer
SB: 1 [M12] Manic Vandal
SB: 2 [PLC] Sulfur Elemental
SB: 3 [8E] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 3 [C14] Tormod's Crypt
Seems fairly straight-forward, except for the four (4) main-deck Sudden Shocks. I am on board with this line of thinking that it's supposed to be more of an unanswerable control card to ensure troublesome creatures are wiped off the board as opposed to just a burn spell (which it can be and technically is). The five Moon effects in the 75 seem low for a mono-red build, but serviceable none the less.
Is anybody keeping up with the commander spoilers? There's a magus for wheel of fortune. Not sure if we'd want it or not anyway but they made it a 3/3 so we wouldn't be able to tutor for it. I'm so sad.
I'd love for a reload your hand card. I tried Reforge the Soul since I run SDT in Painter but the card felt slow.
I would keep it asymmetric if you can. Cards that reload an opponent's hand can be equally as bad for you with less filtering options.
Well it depends on what you want out of your aggressive creature, if you want someone to clog the board that's a bit different then aggression IMO. Over the course of this decks history there have been plenty of other aggressive creatures that have seen play (Figure of Destiny, Kargan Dragonlord), but mostly the want for a purely aggressive creature had died down. Heck I think one could make the case of Scab-Clan Berserker being one of the better aggressive mode creatures we could run. Rabblemaster is just a bit dodgy based on the negative interaction with Welder.
Mom and Dad is a good one two, but I'm not sure I'd call them pure aggro sauce.
DRS is one of the reasons why we were running main deck lightning bolt two years ago. Abrupt Decay isn't all that worrysome, if they are holding mana open to float for Abrupt Decay that's a win for you and a pretty bad speed bump for them. Goyfs are petty weak against Ensnaring Bridge. IDK my experience with Shardless BUG is that we are definitely favored.
Hi, Trying Painter again with the DTT ban, and I dont have the energy to play my A game with esper control for a long day this weekend at Seattle. My sideboard looks out of date, and there are some things i never figured out. I need some sideboard help here, and not sure if they are still valid or what decks to bring it in.
-assemble the legion (i believe its against miracles. any other decks?)
-koth (when am i bringing this in 100% of the time)
-are most ppl playing COP:red against burn? is it likely to run against burn at GP seattle. im thinking of dropping it.
-are we playign rest in peace (tutorable) against reanimator and goyf decks?
-maniac vandal or viashino heretic?
-also how many people are running ensnaring bridge in sb sv the mainboard.
-also how do you side against the mirror?
also is anyone playing chandra, pyromaster? i feel like return to ravnica electrickery's is very viable. feels like it just can do so much vs SO many legacy decks. i mean dark confidant/ flickersip/revoker/motherofrunes/ goblin warrans/ young pyro/ unflipped delver/ some other goblins / the list goes on.
Thanks!
Read through the last 10 pages or so bro, and painter is no step down from a control deck. You're setting yourself up for disappointment.
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