Great post, I totally agree! 4 MM in 4 Goyf out makes SB tables nice and clean and keeps your curve in check.Originally Posted by LarsLeif
Loaning this deck out to a friend for the GP this weekend and he needs some sideboarding advice against the top decks. His current list is the following:
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Forest
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Baleful Strix
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Hymn to Tourach
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
S/B:
1 Disfigure
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
2 Meddling Mage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Notion Thief
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Scrubland
1 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Wasteland
Any help is greatly appreciated.
What do you guys think about jace vryn? Is it worthy? We do not have a lot of grave targets..
Meh, I'd rather play another Baleful Strix.
To the guys talking about grave hate:
* Please don't run Leyline of the Void. It's terrible unless you're gonna run 4; because you basically have to mull for it.
* Nihil Spellbomb is a beast for the Exile type (which you should always have 1-2 of.) Lands Turn 1 and is good enough to stop dredge if you're patient as they have a lot to play around when you have it. The cantrip is useful for finding more gravehate (or w/e) and it just works as a nice safety valve.
The reason it works so well is because as a DRS deck it buys you time so that their second attempt to get things going with the grave is likely to be stymied as well. Yeah, RiP or Cage are better when you get them against Dredge/Storm, but Spellbomb does 90% of the work IME anyway.
Used in conjunction with countermagic, discard, and other stuff, Spellbomb has treated me very well over the couple years of legacy I've done, and I can't recommend it enough.
Sideboarding tips:
Board out discard vs tempo/control strategies, but not blade decks necessarily and keep hymn vs other midrange BG/x decks.
Board in removal vs other midrange and tempo and board out FOW and thoughtseize in some combination. Death and taxes boards in Wilt-Leaf Liege so be careful with Hymns and Liliana.
Board in meddling mages, artifact based hate, and discard against the spell based combo decks for the abrupt decay/deluge/pulse slots, possibly with an out to Empty the Warrens.
Vs loam based decks, board in meddling mages and grave hate, board out discard.
This is not hard and fast, and many people will disagree about the effectiveness of discard/countermagic in certain situations. Sideboarding with this deck is actually pretty intuitive because usually half of your cards will be dead or bad.
The 1-off leyline of the void is not there to empty graveyards, it's there to break up loam/PF-synergies, something that spellbomb does poorly. You also don't have to mull to it at all since it has a mana cost that is very castable later in a game (if you have it early you can often start the game with it anyway). Not to say spellbomb is bad but please read the thread and understand why people advocate certain cards before dismissing them and offer other alternatives that doesn't do the same thing.
Against a deck with 8 tutors for 4 Wastelands, 3-4 Loams, and 4 tutors for loam, and sometimes Ghost Quarters and basically semi-ancestral recalls (sometimes multiple) every turn starting Turn 2 or so... you're going to reliably hit 4 mana in a deck that has 4 DRS and 2 basics?
Why do you even need an answer at that point? You made it to T3/T4 with a perfect manabase and are hardcasting 4-drops. You could just win instead if we're in magical christmas land.
That's why 1 mana answers that tempo your opponent out are good; because you actually aren't locked out on T3/T4 because you messed with them. Exiling the grave in response to Loam is fine; because it takes them a long time to get going after a reset unless you've allowed them to stock their hand with Thickets and stuff.
Now.. I'll admit that Void is better if you can get it down; hard to remove, permanent, etc.. but.. I mean.. you're stretching it here. If you're splashing white; just swap in Meddling Mages and RIP. Fuck the Void. RiP is castable and good and if you board into Mages to screw with their Pfire/Loams, it seems fine.
Even at that; if you're expecting to cast it and don't need the exiling thing; you could run Planar Void (which can be worked around) but at least you can make it to 1 mana reliably.
Except that RIP and planar void work on your grave too, thus disabling your DRS. I prefer a couple of Surgical extraction instead: it's not a permanent but it is a permanent solution to what I need to remove.
Ignorance is strength
Usually that's not excatly how it plays out. For Lands to be able to deal with both your pretty expansive board and your manabase they need to have a combination of Loam, PF, Exporation and Moxen and usually they don't have access to those perfect draws, and when they do, Nihil Spellbomb is pretty dead anyways as it doesn't deal with all loams, nor PF. I have had a lot of games where I've hardcasted Leyline against lands, and 11% of the time it's in my starting hand. And this is just Lands, what is important to keep in mind is that both Jund and Aggro Loam are decks that employ PF, but don't assault your manabase in quite the same fashion as lands. But I would be very unexcited about bringing in spellbombs against those decks (as it doesn't interact well with PF), but leyline just stops everything (and is outside of decay range, which is very relevant).
RiP is pretty bad in a deck with Goyfs and DRS, remember: not only lands run the Loam/PF engine.Now.. I'll admit that Void is better if you can get it down; hard to remove, permanent, etc.. but.. I mean.. you're stretching it here. If you're splashing white; just swap in Meddling Mages and RIP. Fuck the Void. RiP is castable and good and if you board into Mages to screw with their Pfire/Loams, it seems fine.
It's ok, but it really falls on being a decayable answer. And it's unplayable through chalice, which is another bad thing it shares with Spellbomb actually.Even at that; if you're expecting to cast it and don't need the exiling thing; you could run Planar Void (which can be worked around) but at least you can make it to 1 mana reliably.
Went 6-3 in GP seatle. Lost to lands, burn and rug delver.
g1 Burn 2-0
g2 Lands 2-0
g3 rug delver 0-2
g4 miracles 2-0
g5 grixis delver 2-0
g6 lands 0-2
g7 burn 2-1
g8 burn 1-2
g9 rug delver 2-0
I was unlucky to be paired against 2xlands 3xburn. They are bad matchups and I have only managed to win 3x because of oponents mistakes. If would play another big tournament, I would use 3x leyline on side. We need extra help against lands, matchup is really poor.
I'd like to share this article about Shardless BUG in the current meta which one of my teammates wrote.
http://bordifies.com/articles/an-eye...shardless-bug/
regarding the latest GP it seems like Shardless BUG is here to stay for a while.
I approve of this message :)
Fantastic (beginning?) to hopefully more articles on the deck.
My current list is a bit different as it has three Strix in the MD with YP leaving the format (to an extent) and so Scrubland in the SB and Strand over the flats, but similar in principal. No Hymns, discard and MM package etc in the SB. Looping forward to hearing more from you.
Mini GP Report:
Night before, I started to get the fear of combo and sleeved up grixis delver (2 sideboard cards off list that got second in GP). But I managed to talk myself into staying faithful to Shardless. Played the Lejay version -1 null rod, +1 v clique. You know, the forest fetching no discard deck w savannah and quad meddling mages. Null rod is good to have vs storm but does nothing in the mirror. I also find that while it shuts down top, having too many cards that don't pressure miracles can be troublesome. Walking them into a v clique on their entreat or taking out a jace can be game winning.
No byes.
R1. 2-0 miracles. First time legacy player. Picking up miracles. For the GP. What a brave soul. Thankfully he played at a reasonable pace. I coached him through several practice games after.
R2. UR hivemind. G1 he got to 7 mana, cast 3 brainstorms with shuffles, and scooped. I wasn't even sure what he was playing but it was definitely combo. G2 he kept a perfect 6 with no land. I duressed him, saw ponder, hive mind, pact of the titan, show and tell, ponder, and monolith. I took his ponder and went on to win.
R3. Death and Taxes. I think this was 2-0 but I'm not sure. It was definitely grindy. G2 he had a large board with all the lock pieces and a crusader. I was using deathrite to keep my lifetotal high and forcing chumps with a goyf since he refused to activate mother. Eventually I whittled him down to mom and crusader, drew lilliana, -2, then swords to plowshared the crusader. Next turn, swung for lethal in turns. This was not the only time STP over disfigure was relevant.
R4. Reanimator. 0-2. G1 I mull to a 6 card hand that would crush delver and died on turn 2. G2 I have a fast deathrite. I thoughtseize and see Jace show and tell entomb reanimate. I take the jace and meddling mage show and tell. He then brainstorms into another entomb and exhume to beat my deathrite.
R5. Miracles 2-1. He kept in CB vs me and that crushed me g2 since I couldn't find an abrupt decay.
R6. Maverick 2-0. I drew relevant cards in order like a quick liliana and a toxic deluge.
R7. 2-1 Chalice merfolk- He crushes me g1. In G2 I stick a NOSB then pulse 2 for one his lords and wipe the rest of the board. In G3 he draws all artifacts like cursed totem and chalices and vials and not enough dudes to beat a plainswalker.
R8. 1-2 vs Shardless. I know I mulled to 5 g1 on the play and was hymned off from almost winning. In a close G3 I have a lethal goyf facing his strix and both of us empty handed. I draw blanks. He suspends visions. I draw and play deathrite and pass. He backs me up and wants to clique my draw. Judge rules in his favor and I don't appeal (I guess I thought that if I just draw removal I win?) Anyways, I go on to draw more lands. There was also a sequence in G2 or 3 where I have a visions at 1 and he draws and plays a meddling mage on my visions. That was a kick in the teeth and wholly unexpected.
R9. Wasteland Merfolk 2-1. G1 I mull to 4 or 5 and get double wastelanded. G2 and 3 lilly and deluge do their thing.
D2.
R10 0-2 vs Tenjum playing Shardless. Again mull a bunch G1. G2 He telegraphs thief for a while so I play jace and fateseal. Eventually he taps out to play a bunch of stuff. I dig 13 cards in one turn (sylvan for full, ponder, double brainstorm with fetches) looking for a deluge that would wipe his board and allow my goyf to kill his jace and whiff. Then notion thief comes down and ends my jace/library fun.
R11 2-0 Maverick. Close G1 with his ooze, scryb ranger, and noble fighting off 3 goyfs and a deathrite. Eventually, he can't develop his mana enough and loses. G2 I have a big deluge to wipe a giant knight and his board, then waste him off the rest of his mana and leave him with a plains. Kinda felt bad.
R12 2-1 Rug Delver. My opponent was flooded in G1. G2 he had all the stifles and dazes at the right time to allow his mongeese to win while I have decays in hand as Rug can do. G3 He opened on Ponder and I had all the cards/mana I needed to develop goyfs to brick his goyfs and a mini deluge to take out his TNN. I win without any pressure from him.
R13 1-2 Loose Mirror...AGAIN. I get a little unlucky in one game (not sure which) where I have a visions going down early. He plays his second land untapped and passes with no play so I fire a wasteland off at him. He then draws and plays a tarpit for the turn (which I reasoned he didn't have on t2). I end up losing two plainswalkers and my life to that tarpit without finding a second wasteland. Maybe that was aggressive of me but I think keeping him off shardless agent is best. Mull to 5 again. Made a mistake in G3 (and this might not be exactly the right sequence but it's close)- Had lilly at 1, 3 mana, decay/goyf/night of souls betrayal in hand. He has a goyf and 4 cards, non of which are lands. I tick up lilly pitching night of souls betrayal and then decay his goyf. He decays my lilly. Turns out two of the last cards in his hand are notion thiefs and v clique and I never find a deluge or pulse to come back.
R14 2-0 Stifle BUG delver. No notes.
R15 Opponent no shows...I take my top 100 250$
Summary:
0-3 in mirror
1-1 vs combo
2-0 miracles
x-0 vs all the delver, vial, mom, tribal types.
Decklist was great, would play again. Other than 2 rounds, I felt like I was essentially preboard for every matchup, which is an awesome edge. 4 wasteland was sweet. Didn't miss Tarpit as I needed to curve out aggressively and rarely felt I could activate it. Not sure about that ponder but it's fine I guess. Not sure I really want a notion thief for the mirror since it's literally never worked for me but it sure was a thorn all tournament. I think 0-3 the mirror is mostly variance as I mulled a lot of no landers and was on the receiving end of some blowouts and never could land one of my own.
1-1 vs combo. I didn't miss discard main. I think reanimator is a fine matchup even with the MD config.
All my opponents were pretty cool and just excited to play legacy.
Seattle was beautiful. Tacoma was whatever.
Nice job! We heve the same point of view. (just not sure about the duress against RUG, i don't like discard in this MU)
I'm waiting for sideboarding plans and match-ups in your next article
Last edited by rei-vax; 11-13-2015 at 12:22 PM.
Nice report infiniteJ! Did you confirm if your shardless opponent that sided in MM was aware that the card is symmetrical? Feels like a very tilting way to lose a game regardless :P
He was well aware that he sided in a grizzly bears. He just kind of shrugged. It must have been G2 because now I remember almost siding in a meddling mage G3 since I don't have baleful strix, hymn, or notion thief. Thankfully, I left him in the board.
Here's roughly how I was boarding:
For the mirror, I was boarding -4 force +1 stp, +1 Savannah, +1 v clique, +1 nosb (if they had thief/strix) or +1 nihil spellbomb if they don't. On the draw I boarded out a forest for the spellbomb either way. Spellbomb allows you to potentially counter a deathrite activation, shrink a goyf, and more crucially to start a turn up a card after a hymn or lilliana makes you empty handed. It's not great but it's better than force of will imo.
For Miracles I was boarding -1 deluge, -1 marsh flats, -1 force, +1 needle, +1 v clique +1 thoughtsieze. If they have 3 v clique, scm, and mentor, I would consider leaving in the second deluge or boarding in NOSB but never boarded it in. Not sure if the 1 thoughtseize is better than force, probably not.
For the thalia/merfolk type matchups, +1 savannah, +1 swords, +1 needle (often) +1 nosb. -4 force. For DNT, I board in 2 thoughtsieze on the draw to deal with SFM.
For the delver matchups, it depends if they have stifle or young pyro or what. it's also play/draw dependant. In general:
RUG -2 jace, -2 force +1 swords + 1 spellbomb +1 duress +1 savannah
Grixis replace the spellbomb with a nosb.
BUG leave in jaces and board out more forces. No need for duress/spellbomb.
Combo: -decays and goyfs and land + savannah mages and duresses. Occasionally leaving in some decay if they have new jace or are elves and instead boarding out some number of visions or a jace. I actually like sylvan in the combo matchups.
I've found the mirror to be incredibility high-variace unless one or both of you has serious mirror-breakers like additional Tar Pits, unusual Planeswalkers like Garruk Relentless, Loam, Tombstalker, or Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and lots of interactive cards to rebuy. Beyond that it's mostly about who can hit the right cards off of Agents or who can hold on to Sylvan Library longer in my experience. I don't think Notion Theif is worth the slot since he's worse than Clique or Meddling Mage against everything but the mirror.
Good morning Guys
Finally we are back on the deck to beat!
I have some general question:
1) What do you think about list that run only 3 Ancestral Vision?
In my opinion is not a bad idea; yes is the core of the deck, but you don't want to see it, in multiple copies in your start hand,not to mention that in late game is a really bad top deck.
2) I went back to play a standard list (4 discard ,4 planswalker ,2 strix, maindeck) without White splash in sideboard; i feel a bit safe playing this list(probably i'm not so good to play Meddling Mage), that is a bit worse against combo, but in my opinion is more solid in other MU like tempo deck or BG based.
3) For the most experts:
Sylvan Librabry, is a Must in this deck? with my conformation i haven't space for it,maybe i can replace the 4th Vsion with It!
What do you think about Tasigur,the Golden fang? i try it and i think that need space in our 75s , is not only strong against BG or Tempo, but i found it strong also vs Combo, where you need to put pression, at low mana cost
(Always play it at least on the 4th turn).
4) I see that the meta is shifting to Punishing Fire (see also miracle list with it), i will not explain how bad this card is for us...i don't find in Nihil spellbomb and Leyline valid answers (1 is not defenitive and one is too slow)... i read about RIP, but in my opinion is the worse choose...I'd like to test Reliq of Progenitus, yes could damage our tarmo and shaman, but you are not obbligated to target our grave!
Bye!!
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