[Deck] CounterSliver

[AngryTroll]

I was skeptical about the deck also, but spent a night playtesting against it with Goblins. I would not say the matchup is positive for Goblins. Plated and Muscle Slivers are both annoying (moreso Plated then Muscle, actually, because it blocks Lackey), Crystaline is a pain, and Talon tends to win the game on the spot. I did win my share of games, that is certainly true, but I would not want to run into that match in a tournament.

[Maverick676]

IBasically, where Threshold has to commit a single threat to the board and protect it, you have to commit MANY, and you aren't running any cost cheating mechanics like Goblins does, and all of your creatures suck on their own, so if like, Muscle Sliver is countered or removed, all your Talon Slivers are overcosted Tundra Wolves.

Yes this deck have to commit multiple threats to the board, thats exactly what beats goblins, we have multiple first striking, untargetable blockers.

Stifle and Chain of Vapor seem poor in this deck, though Pithing Needle is great. Chain of Vapor basically comes with the tagline "don't cast this until Crystaline Sliver is in play", which probably makes it worse than Boomerang, because people are going to bounce your Slivers if they have the chance. Stifle seems poor, especially seeing as you are already running Pithing Needle. Do you really want more than 4 activated ability stopping effects? It just seems like you are wasting spots that could be devoted to more board controlling effects.

WOW you really have not tested this deck, early Chains of Vapor are great tempo and usually you either have crystaline sliver out or nothing at all. Hell even if they bounce one of your slivers, which doesn't happen very often (unless your an idiot), they still have to sacrifice a land. Usually decks like thresh can't afford to do so. Against goblins you bounce their vial or their warchief/lackey. It is a retaredly one sided boomerang that COSTS 1.

Regarding stifle, this card kills alot in the field. SEE the beginning of the thread. YOU CAN READ RIGHT?

Please by all means test the deck and see for yourself. Until you do please stay off of this thread with your misinformed and sarcastic comments.

[Volt]

I made that comment because you guys were still running the exact same lists as ones that have been tried in the past, but almost every time people realized that it was just a bad version of Threshold, just like this deck. To quote Spat:

http://mtgthesource.com/forums/showp...97&postcount=2

Basically, where Threshold has to commit a single threat to the board and protect it, you have to commit MANY, and you aren't running any cost cheating mechanics like Goblins does, and all of your creatures suck on their own, so if like, Muscle Sliver is countered or removed, all your Talon Slivers are overcosted Tundra Wolves.

Stifle and Chain of Vapor seem poor in this deck, though Pithing Needle is great. Chain of Vapor basically comes with the tagline "don't cast this until Crystaline Sliver is in play", which probably makes it worse than Boomerang, because people are going to bounce your Slivers if they have the chance. Stifle seems poor, especially seeing as you are already running Pithing Needle. Do you really want more than 4 activated ability stopping effects? It just seems like you are wasting spots that could be devoted to more board controlling effects.

I'm actually going to test this out, because I don't believe a word of it. Once I'm done with Battle of the Sets, I'm going to build the decklist on page 11, and I'm almost goddamn positive that it doesn't have a positive matchup against Goblins or against Threshold. You're manabase is poor, and you need to resolve and keep multiple, very specific creatures in play in order to have a chance of beating either of these two decks, which is unlikely because you also want to block.

Call me what you want to, but when people start going apeshit because I suggested adding Telekenetic Sliver, and people continue to defend their decks with 0 changes and frigging Talon Sliver, decks which up to this point have done very little, yet have been tested and run many times. It's not like this idea hasn't been done to death, so I don't understand all this resistance to try out these new, more powerful Slivers.

Once again, we did not go "apeshit" on you because of the suggestion, but rather because of your dismissive attitude.

Our list is not the "exact same list." It is quite a bit different from previous versions that have been tried, actually.

Yes, this deck does require that you "over-commit" to the board, which would be a bad thing in an environment that runs lots of board-sweepers. Fortunately, most of the popular decks in Legacy right now do not run very many wrath effects. Also, keep in mind that Engineered Explosives and Pernicious Deed can be answered with Stifle or Pithing Needle.

Stifle, btw, is quite good in this deck, albeit better in some matchups than in others.

Regarding Chain of Vapor... that's one of the few things that Mav, Pinder, and I disagree on at this point. I prefer Pithing Needle in that slot.

[Maverick676]

Regarding Chain of Vapor... that's one of the few things that Mav, Pinder, and I disagree on to this point. I prefer Pithing Needle in that slot.

As for COV vs. needle, in my meta while we have tier 1 decks (mainly goblins, some thresh and solidarity) we also have lots of random jank, WW, Madness ect. so COV is great utility against those worships and roar of the wurm ect.

If I were taking this deck to a large tournament It would probably be pithing needle instead of chain of vapor. So as far as an agreed upon list I will concede that pithing needle is probably the right call against tier 1 and tier 1.5 decks.

[Pinder]

I could really go either way on the Pithing Needle/Chain of Vapor issue. There are a lot of times that I wished I had CoV instead of Needle, and a lot of times it was the other way around. It really depends on what you're playing against and what the board looks like. Pithing Needle would make a fine replacement, if anyone felt like running it.

Telekenetic Sliver would not. Yes, it's Opposition. Yes, it's cool. Yes, it costs too much for this deck. That's about the long and short of it. And I ask you, Alfred, how would Telekenetic Sliver keep us from overextending more than we already do? And personally, if I'm tapping Slivers, I'd rather be attacking with them.

As to this idea being 're-hashed', I agree. Lots of people have tried this. Lots of people have failed. And a few people have even succeeded (GPT last October, anyone?). The reason this is different is because Legacy is a completely different format now than it was in years past. Sure, Talon Sliver isn't super duper great all by itself, or even in general, but in a format where the best deck runs a swarm of creatures with toughness 2 or less, Talon Sliver is a fucking star. If the metagame shifts, and Goblins falls from atop its heighty throne, then we might take Talon Sliver out. If Combo dies and control matchups start to rise, then we'll adjust accordingly. But we'll only do that when it happens.

[Phantom]

I could really go either way on the Pithing Needle/Chain of Vapor issue. There are a lot of times that I wished I had CoV instead of Needle, and a lot of times it was the other way around. It really depends on what you're playing against and what the board looks like. Pithing Needle would make a fine replacement, if anyone felt like running it.

Has there been any thought to running Chain of Vapor/Eng Explosives mainboard and siding in Pithing Needle? Needle is an easy card to love in a testing enviorment, but can often be a tough play in a game 1 tourney enviorment. Many cards need to be needled before they hit the board for full effectivness (fetches, survival, wasteland, deed).

Also, this will give you no artifacts or enchantments mainboard (assuming you went with Chain) so opponents disenchants/seals will be dead and decks might not side in hate for your needles.

Just a thought.

[Maverick676]

Has there been any thought to running Chain of Vapor/Eng Explosives mainboard and siding in Pithing Needle? Needle is an easy card to love in a testing enviorment, but can often be a tough play in a game 1 tourney enviorment. Many cards need to be needled before they hit the board for full effectivness (fetches, survival, wasteland, deed).

Also, this will give you no artifacts or enchantments mainboard (assuming you went with Chain) so opponents disenchants/seals will be dead and decks might not side in hate for your needles.

Just a thought.

Actually the mainboard slot has been changed quite a few times between these three cards. Pinder and I cut EE for the chains and we sideboarded needle of course. Phantom your probably right about needle being a tough play game 1, since usually you have no idea what to name. especially if your opponent isn't playing a tier one or well known deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

Actually, I kind of like the Opposition Sliver in the board against a random.dec that you werent expecting.

It offers a lot of general solutions to a wide range of strategies.

[Maverick676]

Actually, I kind of like the Opposition Sliver in the board against a random.dec that you werent expecting.

It offers a lot of general solutions to a wide range of strategies.

I can't really think of much that he takes care of that you don't already have other answers for. Plus he's 4cc that can be a problem for this deck sometimes. He seems like he would just take up sideboard slots that could otherwise go to vastly superior cards in most matchups.

EDIT: I don't mean to sound rude about this subject. I just don't think that opposition sliver has a place in this deck, there are a great many powerful slivers a 4cc but they are unplayable in this deck because they are so slow. I'm sure if slivers does well in T2 it will be because of this guy, but I don't think he is playable in legacy. I will test it when it comes out though since the ability is quite powerful.

[Pinder]

Yeah, Telekenetic Sliver is good. Just not in this deck. The deck is too Aggro to want to worry about playing something for 4 mana or tapping your opponents things. Off the top of my head, I can see him going into a U/W Sliver Control deck, with Crystalline Sliver, Telekenetic Sliver, Winged Sliver, and maybe even some Meddling Mage/Hivestone madness for good measure. Hell, maybe even Tangle Wire. Toss in some counterspells, and you're looking good. He taps permanents, not just creatures, which turns every Sliver you control into a free Rishadan Port against their mana. This is incredible. Rest assured, if he costed 2 (or possibly even 3) mana, I could definitely see him being run in this deck. But as it stands, he's just too expensive. Telekenetic Sliver is great, but he's best suited for a deck that can afford to sit around and play things while countering your opponent's stuff and building up mana. You're free to build a deck like that if you want. Hell, after all that brainstorming I might just go home and drum up a list tonight.

What I'm trying to say is that Telekenetic Sliver isn't bad, in fact it's amazing, but we don't have the right kind of deck here to support it. We're an Aggro deck with a light counter/cantrip base. We aren't the right kind of deck for Telekenetic Sliver.

On the subject of Pithing Needle/CoV/EE, I agree with Phantom that Needle is best when it's a sideboard card. This means that it's pretty much a battle for the slot between CoV/EE. I'm not really going to formalize an opinion on this, because I love them both. Players can run whatever they feel like, either one is superb in this deck.

[xsockmonkeyx]

BTW if watcher does turn out to be a 2cc sliver that gives all slivers defender or something like that, I will be punching people in the face.

New Slivers from MTG salvation spoiler:

Watcher Sliver 3W
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers get +0/+2.
Illus. Liz Danforth
2/2

Yay, a castle sliver. :/ Not much help.

Then there's:

Spinneret Sliver 1G
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "This creature can block as though it had flying."
2/2

Oh boy, a strictly worse winged sliver for green.

And:

Opaline Sliver 1WU
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell an opponent controls, you may draw a card."
2/2

Bad synergy with Crystal Sliver and too mana intensive.

But there is a nice little 1 mana blue sliver:

Screeching Sliver U
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers have "tap: Target player puts the top card of his or her library into his or her graveyard."
1/1

Intriguing at 1 mana. :)



And just for your information:

Bonesplitter Sliver 3R
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers get +2/+0.
2/2

Fury Sliver 5R
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers gain doublestrike.
3/3

EDIT:

Found this one too:

Quilled Sliver 1W
Creature - Sliver
All Slivers gain "Tap: This creature deals 1 damage to target attacking or blocking creature."
1/1

Meh.

[Maverick676]

Spinneret sliver looks interesting simply because it's a 2/2 sliver for 2. This deck could use a little more beef on the table, the only sliver that becomes 3 power with a muscle out is crystaline sliver.

I really like quill sliver and will definitely test him. Being able to ping attackers may give the deck a devastating edge on every creature based strategy. People have been disagreeing with chain of vapor in the deck, well this could be the card to take it's place. Quill would up the sliver count and also give the deck reccuring creature removal.

EDIT: the rest of the slivers look rather unplayable. Opaline would be interesting if our opponents could actually target our guys.

[Djelmo]

There's also

BoP Sliver 1G
Creature-Sliver
All sliver have "Tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
1/1

This will make Slivers Tier 1, IMO.

[Maverick676]

There's also

BoP Sliver 1G
Creature-Sliver
All sliver have "Tap: add one mana of any color to your mana pool."
1/1

This will make Slivers Tier 1, IMO.

His ability looks handy, but there is just no room for him. Better slivers are available and having too many slivers will be a problem in this deck.

Again would people please test this deck before saying such and such sliver will make it tier 1, this deck is very close to, if not already tier 1.

[Djelmo]

His ability looks handy, but there is just no room for him. Better slivers are available and having too many slivers will be a problem in this deck.

Again would people please test this deck before saying such and such sliver will make it tier 1, this deck is very close to, if not already tier 1.

Has anyone tried making it flat aggro with Vial and everything, running maybe 30 slivers in the deck? That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now. The BoP sliver might fit into that.

Also, the Juzam Sliver might be sideboard tech against slivers in Sui.

[vanele]

Hmmm, this sliver looks like great sideboard material.
(Don't Quote me on this but i believe it says)
Harmonic sliver 1GW
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain: "When this sliver comes into play you may destroy target artifact or enchantment."
1/1

Then i saw:
Sliver with two heads? 1R
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain : Cannot be blocked by two or more creatures
1/1

Might be useful with Sledge sliver?
Well thats all i can say for now.
My source for this being: http://www.magiccorporation.com/mc.p...&cat=&debut=63

[Maverick676]

Has anyone tried making it flat aggro with Vial and everything, running maybe 30 slivers in the deck? That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now. The BoP sliver might fit into that.

Yes the BOP sliver might fit into an aggro sliver deck which would have to be GRB to be fast enough and would not have anything resembling a draw engine. In short Goblins would most likely be a better choice.

Also, the Juzam Sliver might be sideboard tech against slivers in Sui.

Indeed this guy would be a headache if he resolved.

That might work rather than the threshold-like style you have now.

If im reading this correctly your saying the deck doesn't work? Tell me, have you tested it? I've spent the last 3 weeks working on this deck and you think that with abosolutely ZERO hrs playtesting you can make a accurate assement of the deck?

I don't know how to make myself any clearer, this deck is COUNTER-slivers. It is an aggro control deck. It is not sliver 5 color tribal, or sliver aggro. If you want to do some testing and actually add something to the decks developement, then by all means do so. If you want to discuss the possibilities of sliver aggro then start a thread on the subject.

And to all those suggesting aether vial: it has been tested and dismissed. The card adds very little speed to the deck, and ends up being useless most of the time. It should be listed under the cards not included section at the beginning of the thread.

Hmmm, this sliver looks like great sideboard material.
(Don't Quote me on this but i believe it says)
Harmonic sliver 1GW
Creature - Sliver
Slivers Gain: "When this sliver comes into play you many destroy target artifact or enchantment."
1/1

Yes harmonic sliver seems to warrant some testing in the SB. My main problem with him is that he's a 1/1 for 3. But despite that his effect may prove to valuable to pass up.

[Benie Bederios]

Hey,

I don't think this deck is really near tier 1, maybe not even tier 2. The deck looks fine and it has some nice tricks. It's probably the best sliver deck in Legacy right now. There are some real problem with the deck.

1. No draw. You only play some cantrips without Sweepers. This way you will never gain CA early on except killing creatures in combat. Good threshdecks( at least what I think is good) run Predict. But this deck runs out of gas and if an opponent plays a boardsweeper, you will never get back in the game.

2. You loose to bigger creatures. You might win against Goblins( altough I don't think it is more than 60/40 and with my on experience it is 40/60) but if you face The Rock or Faerie/Angel Stompy like creatures you will go down unless you have Talon Sliver and 2 Muscle Slivers. Goblins isn't as easy as you say it is too. You must get a quick Crystaline Sliver, a Muscle Sliver and a pump Sliver and even then your opponent might just kill you with Siege Gang Commander and Goblin Sharpshooter. Of course you can lock them sometimes, but with your weak manabase they might just overwhelm you with Goblins Ringleader and such.

3. Some subotimal choices. You speak of Engineered Explosive, but I think this deck isn't build for it. You can't really play it for 1 or 2 without killing your own creatures. Stifle a nice card indeed, but as a 4-off seems a little to much. And you( I don't know who) want to play Needle next to that. that means 7 ability counters... counterablities... whatever. Chain of Vapor is the good option because it stops a Lackey and can give CA.

If you can get rid of those flaws( and I hope you will, because Slivers are cool) it might be a really good deck, but right now it's just an average fundeck.

BB

[Volt]

I think some people in this thread are talking out of their asses, and I'm not referring to Mav, Pinder, and myself.

I'm not going to waste time trying to talk anyone into believing this deck is tier 1 or 1.5, and I suggest that Mav and Pinder don't bother either. I'm just going to continue to enjoy playing the deck and having good results (mostly) with it. If someone is brave enough to pick up the deck, perhaps tweak it a bit, and take it to a major tournament, that would be great. I would like to hear how it does. Unfortunately, there are essentially no large Legacy tournaments that I can attend in the near future without having to hop on a plane.

Lastly, let me say this: This deck DOES beat goblins. I have tested the hell out of it. I just finished a set of 25 games last night, with my new version which runs maindeck 3x Pithing Needle + 3x Stifle. Slivers won 18 (!) of those games. If you don't believe me, TEST IT FOR YOURSELF. Just do me a favor, don't test it for just 5 games and then come back and say "I went 2-3. The deck is only 40% vs. Goblins!" At the very least, you need to play 10 games, and preferably 20.

Btw, just for reference, here is the decklist I've been using for play-testing recently:

4 Tundra
3 Tropical Island
4 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains

4 Crystalline Sliver
4 Muscle Sliver
3 Plated Sliver
3 Talon Sliver
2 Winged Sliver

4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Stifle
3 Pithing Needle // Pinder & Mav favor Chain of Vapor in this slot
1 Eladamri's Call // everybody wants to cut this card, except me

[Maverick676]

I don't think this deck is really near tier 1, maybe not even tier 2. The deck looks fine and it has some nice tricks. It's probably the best sliver deck in Legacy right now. There are some real problem with the deck.

You don't think, Done any actual testing?

1. No draw. You only play some cantrips without Sweepers. This way you will never gain CA early on except killing creatures in combat. Good threshdecks( at least what I think is good) run Predict. But this deck runs out of gas and if an opponent plays a boardsweeper, you will never get back in the game.

Most thresh lists quit using predict and they still work just fine. also the deck runs counterspells for a reason, to stop things such as board sweepers.

You loose to bigger creatures. You might win against Goblins( altough I don't think it is more than 60/40 and with my on experience it is 40/60) but if you face The Rock or Faerie/Angel Stompy like creatures you will go down unless you have Talon Sliver and 2 Muscle Slivers. Goblins isn't as easy as you say it is too. You must get a quick Crystaline Sliver, a Muscle Sliver and a pump Sliver and even then your opponent might just kill you with Siege Gang Commander and Goblin Sharpshooter. Of course you can lock them sometimes, but with your weak manabase they might just overwhelm you with Goblins Ringleader and such.

Again have you actually done any testing? Their creatures are slow, great daze and swords targets. Also their board sweeper can be needled and stifled.

Some subotimal choices. You speak of Engineered Explosive, but I think this deck isn't build for it. You can't really play it for 1 or 2 without killing your own creatures. Stifle a nice card indeed, but as a 4-off seems a little to much. And you( I don't know who) want to play Needle next to that. that means 7 ability counters... counterablities... whatever. Chain of Vapor is the good option because it stops a Lackey and can give CA.

Again have you done any actual testing? If your playing EE you only play and activate them when it is advantageous to do so. Also stifle rocks in the current metagame, thats why it's a 4 of.

If you can get rid of those flaws( and I hope you will, because Slivers are cool) it might be a really good deck, but right now it's just an average fundeck.

You have done zero testing and on top of that you insult my deck!?!?

Tell me Benie Bederios do you actually play this game or do you just troll around the source posting your ninnyhammer opinions where the whole world can be pained by them?