Next turn, play another Torment equals 15 damage at best. You're still 5 short and suddenly without a clock. And you've been assuming your opponent doesn't have instant speed removal or the ability to block/Maze of Ith your critters. And that's your most ideal scenario.
I never claimed that a resolved 4 CMC enchantment/creature would end the game there and then.. nevermind.
Yeah, you didOriginally Posted by crush
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I am of the mind that any threat that cannot be gsz for has to be absolutely absurd to have a spot in this deck. The conditional activation makes me want to look another way for threats. I can understand wanting a 5/5 flyer but baneslayer is just better or even tombstalker. I want to rely on my threats. Tusk, sigarda and rhino are more reliable than a herpes outbreak bc you know what they are gonna do and they will do it when ever they can. Personally, the only card I see making any change for us is meren. I will never play less than 4 physical Skillerhino because it's too strong so my 4 spot may get dicy but I'm not too worried. Meren looks pretty amazing so much that I may go up a karakas.
Fixed.Yeah, you did
I lol'd. Anyways, I'm in the same camp as Ricardio. And I'm really looking forward to Meren. Although I'm not sure yet where to put it in my own degenerate, crazy ass build. Space is already way too tight as it is.
I will undoubtedly cut elspeth since she's the insane card in my 60. From there I may try to find space for a second meren at which point I will go to 1 plains for a second karakas. I am worried that meren needs support like lingering souls to be effective.
Daxos's Torment could be interesting. Throw in some Academy Rector's, and see where it goes. I could definitely see a one of Archtype of Endurance that you could rector for, or live the dream and get Omni.
The new 2GB Raise Dead guy is definitely going in. I cut Recurring Nightmare for the tournament since there was so much Delver with Pierce and Stifle in the room...
I played this to a 4-3 drop finish:
4 Veteran
2 DRS
1 Ooze
1 Witness
4 Rhino
1 Sigarda
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Decay
2 Path
2 Deed
2 Deluge
1 Truths
2 Sylvan
3 Top
4 Therapy
4 GSZ
22 Lands (both towers, no Karakas nor Arbor)
2 Slaughter Games
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Needle
2 Grip
2 Golgari Charm
2 Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
1 Thrun, the Last Troll.
Explanations in next post.
Cut the cuter stuff on the advice of friends to max out on efficient stuff. Truths showed up often and was insane. Much better than charm at drawing cards aince you always have removal.
Sigarda is the best threat you always want. Everytime I had Sigarda except when I hardcast it as a desparation play, I won. Ill start playing two.
Quick Liliana is hard to beat, especially in Shardless where they clog the board. Jace is also a problem. I wouldnt mind an unblockable creature.
Qasali pulled weight the entire tournament, and instabt speed was always relevant. Leaving a body behind was not in this build.
Losses were to Shardless BUG nutdraws in 2 games, losing to ANT, and a loss due to bad draws against deathblade (Eric had a deck of which the pimp was quality like mine).
I beat Esperblade, Grixis, Maverick, and I think Sneak/Omni. Board felt good.
How were deed and deluge MD ?
I'm still convinced sweepers are not needed MD with our new draw spells.
Sylvan + Truths ( 1/3 or 2/3) have been enough in my testing.
Nevertheless, I found Sigarda to be not enough against shardless. She does shut down liliana until they found toxic. And usually this is when it comes really hard for you to come back. 7/8 Goyfs are a pain.
I found Batterskull + Jitte to be great against BUG strategies. A rhino/sigarda equipped is a nightmare to deal with.
However, I'm not sure we need to play SFM.
BSK can easily be Thragtusk's slot and jitte a sweeper's slot.
I have not done any testing with sfm so I will have to try that at some point along with truths. I wanna go down to 2 deed but I love the card waaaaay too much. I am currently at work, itching to tweak the deck.
That's the beauty. I don't think we need to play SFM, just equipment.
The surprise factor is even greater.
Not to mention that it transforms any late squirrel into a freaking beast.
How are the equipment better than planeswalkers? Cost the same. Both effect the board differently but no one runs destroy planeswalkers cards outside of judgement and pulse. The value is immediate upon resolution. Ajani makes 4/5 Drs. Garruk shts out beasts. Suns champion creates an army and then gives them all red bulls for the win.
Without sfm, equipment are meh.
No they don't.
I'm not denying the power of PWs.
But overall I think BSK survivability is beyond the PWs you are naming.
You forgot that PW can be attacked into and die to bolt + punishing fire. Jitte dies to AD.
Anyway, we could list the benefits of both during days.
Ajani / Garruk = 10 CMC
Elspeth = 6 CMC
BSK+Jitte = 7 CMC
Without mentioning the color requirement for Garruk and Elspeth, there is already to my taste a world of difference.
But you might be right as far as SFM is concerned. A two-of might be needed to push the "no-no" comparison even further.
I think some of the posters, here, (no offense intended) are missing the key point here:
I'm trying to get the best value for each Nic Fit deck and I'm not trying to argue with every choice that is being made...
I don't get the general feeling of playing overpowered cards turn 10 with 7 or 8 basic lands into play. Any kid can win a game/match by jamming Karn, Ugin whatever huge beast he has chosen against the right matchup.
What is harder, I think, is to play a very well constructed 75 Nic Fit deck which has balanced matchups against a wider/unknown field.
And gentlemen, THIS has still yet to be achieved (and not once, save maybe Jund Fit which has one of the best record of all time).
I wish someone (better deck builder than I would ever be) can prove me wrong. /barn
You are misinterpreting what I am saying. I am saying that jitte is not strong in nic fit and batterskull needs sfm. Deed sweeps up jitte and makes decay live again in a deck where it's dead against us for the most part. Swords are great but without sfm it's 5 mana and needs a creature. I would rather have a pw. I cannot argue against Suns champ being ridiculous bc I know it is. The mentality you take great displease in is not what we are all working toward. I want to win games with rhino in legacy. Playing cute stuff is just a bonus. I want the deck to win as well. I don't enter a daily and hope I blow someone out with elspeth. I want to win. 4-0 and steadily make a name for the deck and myself. Never mistaken my comic relief and willingness to entertain the ridiculous for a lack of competitiveness. It's rude and totes not cool bro/gurl.
Yeah I'm staying cool !
You must have missed the part where I am saying equipment without deed.
You can find my list a few pages back.
Keep rocking.
I think the issue is the propensity for people to want to jam 6 mana bombs into a deck, without taking into account that there will be times when you don't Vet or don't DRS, and have to play real Magic. When that happens, you lose because you can't cast anything reasonable. The whole point of Rhinofit was to have an excellent threat at a reasonable manacast that you can generally play on Turn 3, on average, and with increased consistency.
I think BUG Fit can run more high end bombs because you can run Brainstorm - you put that shit back, but other builds, namely Jund and Junk, cannot do that.
Long term advantage engines, like Equipment and Planeswalkers, are generally what you want to beat the control decks in the format. But, you have to balance how backbreaking you want to be versus those decks, counterbalanced by the usefulness against, say, Delver, Storm, and Sneak and Show. We'll never be "good against the field" because inherently, this strategy is bad against non-creature, spell based decks. But, that's why you choose slots carefully and have a very solid sideboard plan against those decks.
Sigarda beats Shardless BUG, hands down, but the thing is getting it out fast enough and/or stabilizing before they kill you. That's why you play sweepers, which are amazing in this format. Both Deed and Deluge had their advantages. Deed is better against non-Delver decks, and Deluge is better against swarm and Delver. An increasing number of Goyfs means you'd want more Deed, but more Stifles/Decay means more Deluge.
More to follow.
-Matt
Ok. My apologies. That list seems solid albeit not my thing.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
1 Eternal Witness
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
3 Siege Rhino
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sylvan Library
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Engineered Plague
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Slaughter Games
1 Krosan Grip
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
This is what I'm looking at atm for Mythic this Saturday. The core is pretty similar to what I last shared, but I've changed some of the packages around because Meren will be legal.
Qasali beats Rec Sage now that Meren exists. We need another good value 2-drop, and moving the naturalize bro into that slot makes a lot of sense on many levels. Replacing Rec with Qasali requires cutting Diabolic Intent, which means that the 3rd Top needs to come back in. Meren wants more creatures, so Abzan Charm gets replaced with Courser, which in turn synergizes with the 3rd Top + Sylvan coming back in.
It was a hard road coming to this point, but I've finally cut Thragtusk. I think Thrag is still fine in a lot of versions -- but when you're slinging Rhinos, there's just no reason to run ole Tusk anymore. I'm really kind of saddened by that on a lot of levels, but that's the way things are now. Vindicate probably stands out a little, but it's actually for a pretty simple reason: Meren loses to 2 commonly played cards - Swords to Plowshares, which, let's be real, this entire deck demands being Swordsed -- and Karakas. I'm not going to run a Wasteland, so bringing back the old Vindicate makes a lot of sense here. Plus, Vindicate doubles at planeswalker removal, which can definitely be relevant at the moment.
Things I'm less happy with -- I want to find room for a 4th removal spell maindeck. It'll probably be a Maelstrom Pulse, although there's also the possibility of running a Deluge maindeck, or a singleton Abzan Charm. I'm also not sure if the Elspeth in the sideboard is actually where I want to be, or if I'd rather have another splash Miracles card that can actually function in more than just that matchup (E.Plague is a great example of this, since it shuts down Mentor while also being effective vs Elves, Young Pyro, and Dredge).
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