Welcome to the dark side as you call it. MD I currently run with is 2 dismember, 2 pierce, 2 snare. Forked bolt is good but I really like the 2nd abate for the miracles match up (counterbalance, snap) and added goyf insurance.Originally Posted by Ricardio
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I think it should be clarified; this is literally JUST RUG Delver; not RUG-all-the-decks. There actually is some RUG Delver list (IIRC) with punishing fire (called "Next Level RUG"?), but even then, that's it's own thing. The Junk/Rock thread, for example, has a lot of diversity because it rarely sees Top 8s, and same goes for Pox or other T2.5 or less decks.Has anyone tested x4 Sarkhan Unbroken in a less creature deck and more control shell , maybe with a some rampers ? Since he has the super ability to create 4 4 flying dragons?
RUG cascade maybe its a better solution for him since the mana curve deck?
This deck, however, has a tried and true history of beating up on people, even before Delver. With lists that are almost identical popping up at tournament after tournament all the way up to (and through?) the Treasure Cruise meta. It's literally a thread to discuss *just* that deck; because it's solid until proven otherwise.
You can take a few routes to learn about legacy; mine (and apparently yours) is the unpopular
"play a bunch of garbage and learn from the experience of getting trashed that 5-drops are bad"; or there's the
"Play something good and learn from the experience of getting trashed the subtleties of the format."
The best advice I can give is just play, good or bad decks.
Do you remember the jund player?
Not off the top of my head but he's in my notes. G1 he got a game loss because of deck registration error so we went into a blind g2 with him otp. I lost that game because of a unintutive line I needed to take. G3 I was in a mull to 5 proceeded to stone rain 4 times over the first 5 turns and didn't get there. I'll go more into it when I write my tournament report.
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Most importantly I got this signed by Nils and Jacob which completely made my day :D
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@ Contractkiller: congrats nonetheless, just short buddy... just short. youve got some real tough matchups there... shardless, maverick... glad you pulled it off. reanimator is beatable but u have to play tight game1, after that our deck is much more equipped (i always have 3 slots in my GYhate, in any deck i play) this is where the 3 pierce, snareless built shines... same way with your storm matchup, though snare has more targets here. will check your posted report soon.
btw, awesome playmat man!
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What cards am I hoping to hit with spell snare? What is the sb we are working with at the moment?
Yeah reanimator isn't horrible, but I feel very draw/play dependent. That game at least when I lost I know there wasn't anything I could have done differently. He thoughtseized my pierce played petal into entomb making sure he didn't have to play around daze or the chance of top decking force. Next turn he went for it grabbing elesh and got there. I'll post more about that match later g2 was spicy to say the least.
I love this playmat it is awesome hands down best thing that happened at the GP lol.
So the main contenders to get snared and watch you opponents get really sad are as follows:
Goyf
Young Pyromancer
Stoneforge
Counterbalance
Snapcaster
Baleful Strix
Infernal Tutor
And then a bunch of other 2 drops that are less common hymn, scryb ranger, GSZ for x = 1, Visionary, etc
The main point is those are the big ones and at least one of the first cards listed is played in a tier deck for the most part.
I don't wanna be a menace but there is no notes on the dnt matchup in the primer. That seems like an awful matchup.
I am fearful of it because it's just has a lot of things going on bad for us.
Just played a 10 man.
Flex were 2 forked, 2 pierce, 1 dismember, 1 snare
SB:
2 submerge
2 red blast
2 cages
1 pyrovlast
1 tnn
1 dest revel
1 grudge
1 library
1 vortex
1 surgical
1 flusterstorm
1 sulfur ele
Round 1 ANT
Game 1: I dazed his brainstorm off of t1 delver and then snagged a sea with waste and stifled his follow up fetch.
Game 2: he mulled to 6, kept a sea and 3 cantrips. i had the waste read
This matchup seems fine as long as you get the clock on t1/t2
1-0
Round 2 MUD
Game 1: I look at my opening 6 and its fine but im without protection so i grab my 7th, daze is my safety blanket. He tries to chalice, delver blind flip, wasteland does work as per usual.
Game 2: I keep threat heavy hand with no permission, he has t2 Ugin.
Game 3: I get t1 delver to flip and he goes to sphere of resis of which i force. next turn he lands trinisphere that ends up making his hand a turn slower than mine.
2-0
Round 3 Lands
Game 1: I somehow get in 9 dmg with delver and he finds the pfire. Mongoose goes through 2 mazes and bolts cleans up.
Game 2: This game dragged out so very long. I had him at 7 with tnn out and a bolt in hand but chasm was making my day harder than it should have been. he finds depth combo and marits me.
Game 3: I get an early delver out, he pfires it. I land a goyf and dodge his maze for a turn. stifle his maze trigger and then he makes the marit, i submerge before blocks and surgical his dark depths. he mazes goyf and i finally hit the goose to finish him.
3-0
Deck is strong. i am going to change a cage to a second surgical. otherwise, i am open to suggestions.
It is a miserable match up unfortunately there's not much you can do about it. If you expect a lot of it at your meta pack a sulfur elemental and like 2 artifact hate cards. Boarding should be something like this
OTP - 4 force, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
OTD - 4 daze, - x pierce // + 2 rough, sulfur elemental, 2 artifact hate, Sylvan Library/Vendilion clique
I personally like having a null rod in the board. It's really helpful here turning off all there vials and equipment. If you have snares keep them they really shine in this match up. Mom should be killed on site to avoid having to pair stifle + combat damage/removal spell since that's kind of like a two for one for them. Always counter their vial if you can. Be wary of their flicker wisps since they can change the tide of the battle in an instant.
It's definitely a hard match up, but not unwinnable. Forked bolts main can definitely help, but without any dismembers/ice (I prefer the first) you're pretty cold to other goyf/angler style decks. This match up in particular rewards experience from both players from what I can tell. I've played against some DnT players that were cake walks and others that were invincible it seemed like. Just understanding the flow of that particular match up takes a while.
Now I am fairly new to the deck. I understand the game plan and surface plays but I understand this deck is so rewarding because of plays below the surface and playing heads up of situations is best. Daze comes out otd in most non combo matchups? Is null rod worthy of a sideboard spot? Is clique better than tnn out of the board? He feels like the 5th goose which is usually great. Should grudge be a second destructive revelry? Rough seems great, I should probably get two of those for the board.
Yes daze should come out in most otd scenarios or at the very least be shaved. Null rod has earned it's spot in spades for me. It turns off top vs miracles, petal/LED against storm, Vials/equipment and some other random artifacts like EE and Thopter Foundry. The former set of cards being the huge reason why I play it since despite RUG's reputation storm isn't that great of a match up. It's by no means bad, but people over exaggerate it to be absurdly good when against a good storm pilot it's like 45/55 in RUG's favor.
TNN is better for tempo mirrors and miracles as all star blocker or another evasive threat respectively. Clique is better on paper since it has the potential to make some huge tempo swings such as ripping a miracle card out of an opponents hand with a trigger on the stack. The same can be said for responding to vials or Stoneforge. It's also a flash threat vs combo which is good. I think that just comes down to a preference and which you think you'll need more at any given weekly or 60man event.
Rough is a must as a two of in the board. I think there are definitely some match ups primarily DnT and Elves that you can't win without rough. It just helps us gain a lot of tempo by maybe netting a thalia + stoneforge or Deathrite + visionary.
Grudge and revelry are meta call dependent with Krosan grip being the safer choice. Grudge can gain value with it's flash back, but I think most stoneforge decks especially now with dig gone will revert back to some number of RIP in their boards. Reverly can get some extra damage in usually shaving a turn off our clock. It also deals with pesky RIP and a lone counterbalance if you don't have anything better to board in (and in the miracles match up there's easily 8-12 dead cards in this deck). My personal opinion is a null rod and Krosan grip in the board are able to deal with most situations and give the widest spread of coverage vs stoneforge builds, miracles and storm.
Don't necessarily go to 0 daze; as Killer implies; you may keep 1-3 depending on the amount you're siding in, the next-level knowledge that your opponent will play into them more often in G2 (and be pissed off about it), and how "I lose if this resolves" their stuff is. For instance, I'd keep them in against MUD as they'll chalice or do other huge things every turn and their plan is "Fuck it, he'll run out of counterspells", and Loam decks (despite it being non-obvious) are ok for Daze if you catch a Loam early; making it a nice 2-of or something I think.
Opposing Delvers it's alright as a 2 of also I think, as they'll be playing a tight curve and Dazing you (meaning you'll each have a low number of lands.) You can also Daze something to save an island you need for next turn if you're anticipating it being wasted later that turn (or the following turn.)
Pretty much always remove them OTD against attrition decks. Not only are they packing Decay and DRS 90% of the time so you have a hard time landing Daze. I may be wrong, but I'd hazard this goes for facing BUG Delver as well.
Yeah I think I may have been unclear when I said to shave or cut them. It just depends on the match-up. I would use the following as a guide for deciding to cut/shave daze otd.
Delver, combo, anything with chalice you're usually fine keeping all the dazes.
Stoneblade, Jund, shardless you usually want to shave at least 2 if not more due to the game going long. They have inevitability on their side and can wait it out so daze is usually bad here.
Miracles is probably the one match up I'm the most adament about cutting daze completely otd or otp. It just doesn't make sense to keep it in when we can never pressure them fast enough to run into it. In addition to that we can't effectively pressure their mana.
Last edited by Contract Killer; 11-16-2015 at 07:01 PM.
So I have been thinking about it and I really like gitaxian probe as one or 2 flex spots. Information is paramount in this deck and I know in my meta, snare is not very strong. Tuesday I am thinking 2 fork, 2 g probe, 2 pierce.
Haven't decided on an fully although this week I will be playing roughs because I forgot about them last week. Luckily, we dodged hard. I do however like tnn more than clique still even though it contradicts my feelings on probe. I just view it as fragile and I already have the bugs to worry about. I will try the sb you all suggest seeing as you know better than me.
Played in another 10 man.
Flex were: 2 g probe, 2 forked, 2 pierce.
1-2 miracles.
Game 1: I got him with 2 mongoose and a fow on terminus
Game 2 : I drew 9 lands.
Game 3: I drew 7 lands. He had answers for both my threats.
Daze, pierce out. 3 blast, library, cortex, sulfur in
2-1 alluren
Game 1: otp daze his Drs. Stifle his fetch. Fow his alluren. Pierce the follow up alluren. Delver goes the distance.
Game 2: I draw 9 lands.
Game 3: he makes a weird deluge play to wipe a mongoose. We draw blanks for a few turns. I hit gas and kill him. He drew 14/21 lands. I drew 11/18 lands.
-2 daze, 2 pierce. 2 rough, 1 destructive, 1 ancient grudge.
2-1 lands
Game 1: otp I delver pass. Daze exploration. Waste his taiga on my turn. He fails to find a colored source and dies to flipped delver and mongoose.
Game 2: he pfires delver and marit lages me.
Game 3: I keep waste, goose, fow, fow, bolt, trop, ponder. I play ponder and pass. He casts mana bond so I force.
3 gooses later, he shows me just how poorly the game would have went had I not countered the mana bond. T2 20/20 seems strong.
-4 daze, 2 pierce, 1 g probe. +2 submerge, destructive, grudge, surgical, vortex, library
Esper mentor 2-0
He was paired up to me and gave me the win. I asked to play but he had fallen asleep in the chair. Haha
Aside from flooding into oblivion, the deck felt great. I assume I am not shuffling as much as I should. Otherwise, the deck is still great.
Congrats man. As for the miracles match up it's a tough one. I would recommend shaving the forked bolts, and wastes prior to pierce or daze. I mean you really don't want any mix of bolt, waste, daze in postboard. If you don't have that much to bring in, though I think wasteland is the first on the chopping block along with the secondary removal.
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Wasteland comes out in what matchups? What sb are you working with at the moment?
I feel like daze is great in all aspects but certain matchups. Catching your opponent or making them play around it.
I was referring to your miracles board of taking out pierce and daze. I think wasteland and forked bolt are worse than those. Which could be incorrect depending on how careless the miracles player is and if they fetch duals aggressively.
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