I actually think its better in this shell than Maverick right now. It looks "safer" to go off with all the lock pieces here shutting down interaction. I would probably play more Knights if going down this route though.Originally Posted by TLK
Yeah I tested a little bit with it last night and you're absolutely right. I'm just having trouble with the mana base now. Do I replace the singleton Ghost Quarter with the Stage? What do I take out for Depths? I've already upped to 4 Knights as well.
So BUG is still hit or miss. What about a transformational sideboard with 3 Natural Order and a Progenitus for those grindy green-based midrange strategies? Should break parity in these matchups.
What's your decklist? You should cut a spell for DD, not a land.
Current list is as follows:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Obstinate Baloth
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Sylvan Library
3 Choke
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Forest
2 Savannah
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
2 Bayou
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Ancient Tomb
1 Maze of Ith
1 Scrubland
1 Dark Depths
I'm not sure about cutting down to 3 each of Mox Diamond and Sylvan Library, but I figured those were the "easiest" cuts to make given other people's lists.
Board is as follows:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest in Peace
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Board is definitely up in the air. Leylines help with Burn, Storm and Bx discard decks running Thoughtseize/Hymn/Liliana. Natural Order->Progenitus plan can help in the long, grindy matchups as a surprise combo win-con. Deluge for Elves, D&T, etc. Canonist for Elves, combo, etc. RiP for Dredge, Storm, green-based midrange decks running Goyf, Gurmag, Tasigur, Deathrite. Pulse as a random answer to bigger threats/planeswalkers. I'd really like to try to fit a Dismember or two as well.
If you want the NO package for decks like BUG I think Worldspine Wurm is the man you're looking for.
Really like RIP in conjunction with Stage/Depths, makes sure your Knights are always relevant. Sanctity looks reasonable too.
Good call on Wurm. I'll have to test that out.
Yeah, I was having a hard time considering RIP before I added the Depths/Stage combo, but now I think it's my best grave hate option.
Meren don't need experience counters to be a card advantage engine. I'm not sure it's playable because it's REALLY slow, but i wouldn't dismiss it because of the experience counters mechanic which is marginal imho.
I'm considering chopping the 2 Coursers for a third Baloth and a Sigarda main. The Coursers are great for gaining life when they stick but most often they seem a tad underwhelming. Plus, I'm expecting a lot of BUG at the GP and feel Baloth is much stronger here. Thoughts?
I have cut a courser and added a wilt leaf liege as red seems on the downswing and bg is making a comeback. It gets your creatures closer to goyf as a bonus. Im also playing teeg main atm, as it is a bomb against many decks. I have yet to face a sfm deck so I felt safe cutting arti hate.
I cut Teeg because I found too many times it being awkward with our own Green Sun's Zeniths.
So I made quite a few changes the day before the event. John Kassari, the pilot of the 9-0 12 Post deck Day 1, helped me out. I think overall they were pretty solid. I cut the cards I felt did the least, and added more reliable threats. The deck fared a bit worse against blue decks, ironically, but I crushed all non-blue.
My list ended up being the following:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
3 Mox Diamond
2 Choke
3 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Scrubland
2 Ancient Tomb
Board:
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Rest in Peace
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Trinisphere
1 Circle of Protection: Red
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Engineered Plague
1 Life from the Loam
Round 1 vs Miracles:
Game 1 he won a long grindy game via multiple Termini and eventually an Entreat. I had him very low on life via Dryad Arbor + Jitte beats, but he kept flipping Terminus after Terminus.
Game 2 we went to turns. I definitely would've pulled it out had I had one more turn.
0-1-1; 0-1.
Round 2 vs Dredge:
Game 1 he flipped 2/3 of his deck but nothing of note (lucky me) and I Crop Rotated into Bog and closed it out with Batterskull and a large Knight.
Game 2 I have a T2 RiP. He eventually uses Nature's Claim to destroy it but I search up a timely Bog with an active Knight and close it out from there.
2-0; 1-1.
Round 3 vs MUD:
Game 1 most of his lock pieces were dead (as were mine), but I was able to land a Batterskull equipped with a Jitte for the win.
Game 2 I get an early Mystic and Batterskull. He kills the Batterskull but I have a Jitte to equip to the Mystic as plan B. He has a ton of lock pieces on the board (Sphere of Resistance, Crucible/Wasteland lock, Ensnaring Bridge) but somehow I'm able to stabilize, drop a Bog to negate the Crucible and Decay the Bridge for the win.
2-0; 2-1.
Round 4 vs Mono White:
His deck was interesting. He basically had a bunch of 1/1s (Squadron Hawk, Judge's Familiar, tokens) and a ton of Anthem effects (Crusade, Honor of the Pure, etc). He dropped Humility game 1 which ironically made my Batterskull a 5/5. he chumped my Batterskull for an eternity and I finally won at like 80+ life. Long game.
Game 2 I had a Maze of Ith and an active Knight. He Armageddon'd and only had 1 land. I was able to fetch a Forest then activate Knight to search up a Tabernacle and Wrath his board on his upkeep. Pretty awesome play. I win via Knight.
2-0; 3-1.
Round 5 vs Burn:
Game 1 he gets me down pretty low due to Guides and Eidolon. I'm able to cast T4 Thrun into T5 Batterskull into T6 equip Batterskull to Thrun. He can't do anything about the lifegain.
Game 2 I win via Marit Lage.
2-0; 4-1.
Round 6 vs RUG Delver:
Pre-changes I dominated this deck, so I was interested to see how I fared after the changes. The deck still has a hard time with Goyfs despite running the full 4 Decays. Flipped Delvers are a pain as well. Game 1 I can't keep up and my hate pieces come too little, too late.
Game 2 I have a Choke in hand and only 2 mana. He keeps Wastelanding me to keep me off 3 mana. Had I landed Choke and followed it up with the Tabernacle in my hand it's game over. Frustrating game.
0-2; 4-2.
Round 7 vs Merfolk:
This matchup just seems miserable. Game 1 was closer than it had any right to be, as I'm 1 mana short of Marit Lage victory.
Game 2 is a lot like the RUG Delver game 2, in that I'm 1 mana short of blowing him out with Engineered Plague while he has two True Names in play. Ugh.
0-2; 4-3.
I dropped after Round 7 as I had no way of making Day 2. Ultimately the deck felt really strong, but the blue matchups seemed a little frustrating, if only for the fact I got a bit unlucky. Crop Rotation was amazing all day and never conflicted with Chalice on 1.
Props to you for trying something different, especially for a GP.
It sounds like Stoneforge Mystic did some work, but it really looks kind of dubious in a deck with so few creatures. Was it really better than just having the usual GSZ creatures?
Stoneforge definitely put in work. I was very happy with it. It ate a lot of removal that otherwise would've been pointed at Knight, and with Moxen and Sol lands, hardcasting Batterskull even if Mystic dies isn't that difficult.
I felt in testing that Courser just didn't do enough. Baloth, while awesome against discard and burn, just seemed better as Thrun. Thrun was awesome all day long, especially with the SFM/equipment package. I also loved Crop Rotation. I feel the changes were great, but I still need to solve the BGx midrange problem. Opposing creatures, especially large ones, are an issue. I think I'm really close to getting this deck to its potential, but there are a few pieces to the puzzle I'm struggling with.
Why cut Toxic Deluge then? It's scalable and deals with hordes of small creatures and fatties alike. If it wasn't for Chalice, then StP would be your friend.
As for Deluge - it depends on how much you value your creatures since you run less and smaller butts. Meren of Clan Nel Toth is a GSZ-able target that has some interesting interactions by bringing back Dryad Arbor from Mox discard or being Knight fodder.
I like the idea of running 4 Knights since they complement our strategy very well.
To be honest I just couldn't figure out what to cut from my board to fit the Deluge. It definitely would've helped in the RUG Delver and Merfolk matchups, though. I think I'll be cutting the Glacial Chasm (never sided it in once) and perhaps the CoP:Red for two Deluge.
Sorry dont get me wrong but it seems the development of this deck got some awkward direction. Sylvan Plug is a beast against blue and for me it simply seems not right if you cut pieces and lose against Merfolk, Miracle etc. - Sure sometimes it is a coin flip and magic is will reward the lucky ones, but you should play this deck if you want beat the common (big tournaments) blue field (70%?). If you worry about all the fair non blue matchups, you should simply play Aggro Loams GP Lille incarnation (more point removal, more knights, less sweeper, less lock pieces).
Sure i also pack only 3 library, 3 choke and 3 spheres, but it seems more cuts will tend to less consistency (which originally was a strength of this deck). A long with the Aggro Loam discussion, i see no way to include the DDepths-Lands-Combo. Both lands are more or less useless without the other part and apart from the fact that this deck runs a little white splash one of the strength from Plug is the possibility to "blank" some situations against Wastelands and Blood Moon thanks to enough Basics (minimum 3 Forests, 1 Swamp). As Lejay already mentioned, if you want a build with more Knight/Moxes the best way for "colorless" lands will be to improve the manadenial which means add Ghost Quarter (i play one SB) as a maindeck choice because it works very well with Sphere/Choke and all the other parts (Knights, Titania, Crucible, 5th Wasteland etc.). In this case i also see no Crop Rotation (and i like the card) here, with Chalice and Trinisphere the Crop Rotation seems a justification for DDepths-Combo (which i pointed out, seems the wrong way).
I also don't like the Stoneforge idea, simply because this decks has only a few creatures and all of them should be a tutorable Zenith-target (see above: consistency) and all of them should be able to impact the field, which not only mean to get a trigger (like baloth), it also means to be able to block creatures from your opponent. Stoneforge is a squire itself and will also need another turn (and mana) to get (best case) batterskull on the field - if you are unlucky you a.ready drew (or tutored) the equipment and topdeck a useless stoneforge (and sometimmes you will also get useless lock pieces - you see what i mean)... G2 + 3 you will face all the artifact hate from your opponent, so lean on equipment might not be the best plan.
One of the common problems of "Plug" (and to some degree Aggro Loam) is a heavy BGx field, because the will all have Decays, Gofy and the nasty midrange stuff - one of the advantage can be, that we play some 4+ mana stuff which will shine here (Baloths and other green friends). US Meta (see GP) seems full of Shardless, BUG Delver etc - in this Case Baloths should be nice enough! They way you beat the fair (and creature heavy) decks is (without the PFire plan from Loam) to simply sweep them away: 2 Deluge Main, and 3 more sweepers Side (Deluge, Massacre or other Stuff).
---------
Commander 2015:
Meren seems nice (because you also get Arbor back every turn), but the deck has only a few creatures so first i would give 1 Centaur a try over her. The Centaur Vinecrasher can clearly overpower the field (because "all lands in both graveyards"!), he also has trample (which i sometimes miss with big Knights and was a reason i liked the rhino), mana with 3G is perfect (castable with tomb), he is decay and bolt immun and (which is new for this deck and the zenith toolbox) can be used more than once (it shouldn't be so hard to "trigger" his graveyard ability) so you can cast him early and if he dies (in a case he isn't big enough, only a few lands in yards etc.) he threatened from the yard to come back as a bigger guy. The only three downsides for me are, that he is "only" a beater, will suffer from Rest in Peace like Knights (if you are lucky you can cast him before RiP crushes all yards and he get enough "counters".) and to find the right place for him (because plug is so tight for deckbuilding...)
----------
Testing: I would test the following switch (see signature) in my build:
Main: -2 Baloths (not enough BUG Stuff here); -1 Garruk for +1 Centaur Vinecrasher ; +1 Siege Rhino +1 Decay (played Garruk as a 4th Removal)
Side: -1 Trinisphere (Omnishow is gone) +1 Garruk (more Removal and switches nice witch Centaur against RiP)
At my local store I dont have any Elves (i play them myself^^) or SneakShow stuff here, so i don't have to face the pre-Khans meta (which will find it way back now with TC+DTT got crushed) - we will see if this deck can survive, because the meta full with Miracle and Omnishow (and without Elves and Sneak) was nearly perfect!
TEAM MtG Berlin
I've always loved Life from the Loam, and my biggest regret is the antisinergy between P.Fire and Trinisphere: otherwise i think that a Naya Plug could be perfect.
I don't really see how Merforlk is an easy matchup even if my deck hadn't gone through all the changes. Vial gets around Chalice/Trini lock and they run Islands (aka Wasteland-proof). Vial gets around Choke, too. Not sure how you beat double True-Name no matter what version of this deck you're running.
See Page1 Primer :
-4 Chalice and a some Library / Sphere
+1 Deluge +2 Massacre etc.
With 5 Sweeper TNN & Co should be easy, especially if you also have acess to a creature with Trample and in my case Diabolic Edict. As mentioned before, this deck needs some number of Sweeper!
TEAM MtG Berlin
Well Merfolk doesn't typically run white, so Massacre won't be free to cast. I agree that it was wrong for me to take out Deluge from my board. I'm definitely adding two back in, and perhaps a Golgari Charm.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote