Do you need to hate them out because you are loosing to them or just because there are lots ? Their Chalice plan is redundant against you because you are both ignoring one drops but Abrupt decay in the wrong spot can be a real issue. I am tempted to say Relic of Progenitus might be the best card, it shrinks their yard, and therefore Kotr, and can be used to snag a problematic land or loam. It depends if you plan on using chalice against them, perhaps on 2 ?
Abrupt decay is the obvious problem from their deck, that and Dark confidant drawing the answers to our permanents.
The problem with Leyline is it has to be in the opening hand and we can hardly cast it. Perhaps spellskite is the way to go. redirect all of those annoying decays ?
Remember we are trying to lock them out with crucible and waste which is great against their manabase but awkward vs 2x loam most lists run.
What other graveyard decks are causing you problems ?
Sib
Hating just because I'm a hater :D I think the matchup against lands and aggro loam is not so good and it needs strong sideboard cards. Leylines are problematic of course to get to the opening hand (and not been able to play them any other way) but after they hit the board they do so much that it's tempting to play them. I'm now running Tormod's Crypts as a graveyard hate, let's see how they perform... Other graveyard decks in my meta are Dredge and ANT. Spellskite is interesting, I could try few of those.
@ Sibelius:
How do you deal with midrange ? (Jund / Shardless / D&T)
No matter how hard I try, these decks tend to have the upper hand (Jund being the closest and Shardless the hardest).
What does your SB look like and how do you board against these ?
I will be honest. I haven't put much work into this deck since DTT was banned. The banning of DTT has made decks running the full 4 Ponder 4 Probe 4 Brainstorm and Young Pyromancer less effective and my build is based on directly combating those decks. This doesn't mean that this deck is bad now, just I haven't played it in the new meta.
Shardless and Jund run fewer of the annoying one drops we are built to combat. Various builds of Shardless and all of Jund run Hymn which I imagine is a serious problem for our deck, as are the 4 of Abrupt Decays in both lists.
In our corner Ebridge is still good, as is the Crucible + Waste plan to lock them out. I suggest using Spellskite to get around Abrupt Decay. As to discard my first thought is Bottled Cloister. This card is perfect against discard decks AND draws us extra cards. It is also Decay proof which will certainly help as we go long.
All of this is theory at the moment but I would have thought removing Chalice and Sphere would be good against Jund and bringing in 4 Spellskite, 2/3 Bottled Cloister is worth testing. As to Shardless, Chalice on 0 or sphere should deal with their card advantage as those are our main problems. I really don't know what else to suggest. Shardless is designed to beat up other midragey fair decks. Try to get ahead with permanent on board and use smokestack as inefficient removal ?
D and T. The problem is Aether Vial and Revoker. We have our own Revokers in the board for Vial and our Tabernacle, Bridge and Waste plan should be able to deal with what is left. Slow them down as best as possible. Remember how good Ratchet Bomb is here !
Good luck guys, Ill try and play Stax at my next event. Please do some testing and tell me what conclusions you come to. On the upside the resurgence of Infect and Storm, both of which should be good matchups for us. Get those Chalice for 1 on Turn 1 !!!
Sib
Zak Elsik was playing MUD Stax on camera at the weekends Legacy GP on Round 2! Video can be found here: http://www.twitch.tv/channelfireball/v/24505351, starts at 2:08:12.
So I have been working on this list for a few days now and I am happy with the results so far, the main thing I changed from past staxx lists (other than the lack of smoke stacks) is that I didn't want to play too many 4 drops, also I wanted to play a deck that has a good MU vs delver in game 1.
http://imgur.com/YL0Ko3W
Here is the list I piloted:
2 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Ratchet Bomb
4 Tangle Wire
3 Crucible of Worlds
3 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Smokestack
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Rishadan Port
1 Tabernacle
SIDEBOARD
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Spellskite
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Razormane Masticore
Nothing special really. Bottled Cloister were amazing. Razormane I wanted 2 of at least. Tabernacle was cool but I rarely drew it, somehow, so can't state how good/bad it was.
I did not have any byes. Won my first 4 matches. Lost to D&T because player error on my part, lack of knowledge with deck. Lost again to Shardless BUG, just got out-valued both games, idk what else could be done. Finally lost round 9, closing my record at 6-3, to BUG Delver. Player error both games lost me each one, just dumb on my part. I was exhausted lol, the day was long and the venue was loud. Maybe next time :)
If I had to play again I would pilot a list with a color in it. Probably black because I like the list with Ophiomancer + Braids + Toxis Deluge. Playing a color, any color, gives you better sideboard options. I originally tested a mono red Darreti Stax list with welders and punishing fire, but found it hard to close out games. With the non-color version I had man-lands so games ended quickly.
Thanks for the feedbacks. You have struggled against MU I have mentioned a few weeks ago: midrange.decks
Adding a color also means less consistency (color issues).
I didn't had time to experiment but I think Culling Scales might be the solution against midrange.deck
Another potential out is wurmcoil engine, fairly used by standard MUD builds.
How were the cavern ?
I don't know how you define midrange.deck exactly and I don't know how you plan to board in those matchups, but unless I miss something and unless the card you want to kill out of midrange.deck has a cc of 0, using Culling Scales in a deck that plays Chalice (cc=0) and Moxen (cc=0) does not exactly strike me as very useful.
Making the effort to read a few posts back would have given you exactly the type of decks I was mentioning.
Obviously chalice & mox are sided out when you side in Culling Scales.
Here are my sideboard plan for those MU:
Jund / Shardless / D&T
1 Spellskite
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Zuran Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Orbs of Warding
3 Culling Scales
-4 Tangle wire
-4 Chalice of The Void
-3 Mox diamond
And my list:
Stax
4 Mishra's factory
4 Mutavault
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Tabernacle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Mox diamond
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
Sideboard
1 Spellskite
1 Defense Grid
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Culling Scales
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
2 Orbs of Warding
2 Phyrexian revoker
Last edited by Ralf; 11-17-2015 at 05:54 AM.
Participated last weekend in the Finnish Legacy Championships with my version of the MUD Stax and I have to say that this deck rocks! There were 109 player in the tournament, 7 rounds of swiss and top8. I went 5-0-2 in swiss (3#) and ended up in the top4. My decklist was:
Main
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Diamond
1x Powder Keg
3x Ratchet Bomb
4x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mutavault
3x Rishadan Port
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
1x Caltrops
1x Cursed Totem
4x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Powder Keg
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Spellskite
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Zuran Orb
I played against:
2-1 RUG Delver, usually pretty ok matchup if they don't land an early delver.
2-1 MUD, my friend playing the traditional MUD list. I think in this matchup I only have to deal with the metalworker and after that it's game. Revoker helped a lot!
2-1 In the first game my opponents counters everything I try to play and wins easily by comboing with Omniscience + Release the Ants. Second game goes on a while, opponent tries to combo through 2 Lodestone Golems and some other stuff, he forgets I have Chalice on 1 in table and ends failing to combo me, Lodestone golems finishes the job. In third game I draw everything that is relevant in this game and beat my opponent up with Lodestone.
2-0 RUG Delver, another RUG and another friend playing against me. Early Delver don't ruin the game, but my lock pieces do for the opponent. Repeating Wastelands and Tangle Wire are awesome here.
2-0 Sneaky Show, first game my opponent casts a Show and Tell and I show him the Bridge, almost instant scuup from my opponent. Second game is a bit harder. My opponents counters everything I try to play and ends up having Sneak Attack on the table and wiping my table (few lands and mox diamond) with Emmy. Never surrender never give up! I continue playing, drawing manlands after another and my opponent doesn't find another creature to sneak into game. 6-7 rounds later I win the game with Mutavault beats :)
ID
ID
Top8
2-1 BUG Shardless, opponent destroys me with perfect hand (Shaman, decay, tarmo, liliana). Second game it's my turn to play the perfect hand were I repeatedly destroy his lands, bomb away the shamans and finally the Lodestone golem deals the lethal damage. Last game my opponent got stuck in 2 lands where I go and draw a few Rishadan Ports and 3 Phyrexian Revokers naming Deathrite Shaman and they finish the game my attacking every turn.
Top4
0-2 Aggro Loam, impossible to win? Opponent wastelands me repeatedly and has the Loam-engine going on in both games.
I end up getting 150 store credits and felt pretty good overall with the results. The deck is almost all foiled up and judges did deckcheck to my twice. They mentioned that some of the foils are a little curved but luckily it was always a different card when they tested my deck. I will definitely keep on playing this deck and hopefully see others also achieve good results with it!
Last edited by Avez; 12-03-2015 at 04:54 AM.
@Avez: Gratz on the great finish! Your list was popping up wherever I look. I'm a long time MUD player (combo and stax).
RG Lands' game plan vs us is to prioritize their Waste-lock then combo us after. It is beatable by either naming Pithing Needle on Wasteland (hampers your locks too, but Smokestack should solve that problem), or constantly removing his yard when he has Loam or Wasteland in it (Loam being the priority).
I wanted to inquire what your SB strat is vs RUG and BUG?
Thanks! If I remember correctly....
Against RUG
Out:
-1 Smokestack
-1 Mox Diamond (don't want to lose 2 cards against A.Grudge, I guess...)
-1 Sphere of Resistance
In:
+1 Tabernacle
+1 Powder Keg
+1 Ratchet Bomb
Spellskite could have also worked here as a A.Grudge target and a blocker against mongoose and goyf. Bombs are obviously good in this matchup because sometimes they can get 2for1 (in one game I hit mongoose and unflipped Delver) but also they're crucial for stopping the early Delver-beats.
Against BUG Shardless
Out:
-4 Sphere of Resistance
-2 Lodestone Golem
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
+1 Powder Keg
+1 Cursed Totem
My plan here was to shut down their Deathrite Shamans right at the beginning and attack their manabase with repeating Wastelands and also use Rishadan Port aggressively so that they can't access Liliana. I think that Sphere might gripple your own mana here and Lodestone usually just dies to Liliana or trades with Goyf.
Should have made more notes during the games :(
Against RUG I'm usually boarding:
+1 Spellskite
+2 Zuran Orb
+1 Ratchet
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
-4 Lodestone Golem
-1 Smokestack
I think we have to play control here and the more the game lasts, the better.
Against Shardless I am not sure about removing Sphere of resistance instead of Tangle.
Tangle is virtually card disadvantage which is not where I want to be against a grindy MU.
I also fail to see the impact of cursed totem in the MU save Baleful Strix
Edit: Gratz to say the least Avez. I'll be trying the playset of revoker
Stax
4 Mishra's factory
4 Mutavault
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
2 Tabernacle
1 Maze of Ith
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Sphere of resistance
4 Crucible of Worlds
4 Tangle Wire
4 Smokestack
3 Mox diamond
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Ratchet Bomb
Sideboard
1 Spellskite
1 Defense Grid
2 Zuran Orb
1 Ratchet Bomb
3 Culling Scales
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Bottled Cloister
4 Phyrexian revoker
I imagine its for Deathrite Shaman and an extension of his mana denial plan against Shardless. Baleful Strix is a triggered ability rather than activated, which is what Cursed Totem stops.
Congratulations on your 'Finnish' ;-) Avez
Time to sleeve this deck back up and get testing. We all seem to be agreeing on the main deck, I like the Maze of Ith addition over the third Tabernacle. It is now time to really sort out how to sideboard in all of the Matchups and get some proper testing and practice in. I would love if you Avez could write a post on sideboarding for every deck in meta, not for us to take as correct, but as a starting point for discussion,s because you seem to have had some good success with the deck so far.
Cheers guys
Sib
Last edited by Avez; 12-19-2015 at 06:05 AM.
Played a small 4 round event last night. Went 2-2. Lost to Painter 2-1 and Rug delver 2-1, beat Shardless and Storm. Painter loss was because I played very very badly by not casting Crucible and ending up with no lands. urgh misplay. Painter cant really beat a chalice on 1 without Jaya Balad so should be good. Rug went ok until I yet again had a brain fart and kept a terrible hand only for my opponent to waste me three times. Bad play punished.
3 mox
2 Tabernacle
1 Maze
8 Sol
4 Waste
3 Port
8 Man lands (I have the four seasons of Mishras factory now :) )
4 Smokestack
4 Crucible
4 Chalice
4 Sphere
3 Ratchet Bomb
1 Powder keg
3 Ensnaring bridge
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone
Side
2 Zuran Orb
2 Bottled cloister
4 Revoker
1 Ebridge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Tormods crypt
1 Cursed Totem
2 Spellskite
This board felt really good. Still haven't managed to get the bottled cloisters in hand yet though so don't know how good they are. I didn't like the Maze of Ith, I feel it should be the 4th port.
Sib
Played a 5 swiss-rounds last saturday + top 8.
Lost in semi finals.
R1: Win vs Twin combo (2/1)
R2: Loss vs Aggro Loam (0/2)
R3: Win vs BUG (2/1)
R4: Win vs Burn (2/1)
R5: Win vs Reanimator (2/1)
Quarter: Win vs Painter (2/1)
Semi: Loss vs Infect (0/2)
I made a few sideboard errors and I truly think Infect is winnable.
Same list as posted above.
The sideboard was slightly tweaked:
-1 Culling Scale
-1 Defense Grid
+2 Surgical Extraction
Hello again! Here is the sideboarding guide I was asked to make for the deck. It's very crude but I hope it can start a conversation what works in different matchups and what doesn't. I used my own list as an example, hope you don't mind.
Main
4x Chalice of the Void
4x Crucible of Worlds
3x Ensnaring Bridge
3x Mox Diamond
1x Powder Keg
3x Ratchet Bomb
4x Smokestack
4x Sphere of Resistance
4x Tangle Wire
4x Lodestone Golem
4x Ancient Tomb
1x Buried Ruin
4x City of Traitors
1x Ghost Quarter
4x Mishra's Factory
4x Mutavault
3x Rishadan Port
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
1x Caltrops
1x Cursed Totem
4x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Powder Keg
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Spellskite
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Zuran Orb
RUG
Fast Delver is the worst! Blow it up right away and get some lock pieces out. After sideboard they have Ancient Grudge, so prepare for this and if you can always attack the green manasource (they have total of 3 Tropical Islands) first, shuts down A.Grudge flashback but also every other creature except Delver.
Out:
-1 Smokestack
-2 Mox Diamond (don't want to lose 2 cards against A.Grudge)
-1 Sphere of Resistance
In:
+1 Tabernacle
+2 Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb
+1 Spellskite ?
BUG Shardless
Here I usually try to lock down their Shamans and try to keep them from getting enough mana to cast Tarmogoyfs or Lilianas.
Out:
-4 Sphere of Resistance (they have wasteland, could screw your own mana)
-2 Lodestone Golem (dies to Liliana too easily)
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (shuts down Deathrite Shaman & Liliana)
+1 Powder Keg
+1 Cursed Totem
Miracles
Here we just have to worry about not dying to fast Monastery Mentor beats and land the Smokestack ASAP. Also don't be afraid to raise the Smokestacks to 2 counters. Revoker names the Divining Top of course.
Out:
-2 Ensnaring Bridge (Doesn't really help against Monastery Mentor tokens)
-1 Powder Keg
-1 Tabernacle
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker
Omnitell
Seems that Omnitell is still a deck even without Dig Through Time. Our maindeck is pretty good against them so it's not so bad even if we don't have good sideboard cards against them. Try to land the Chalice on 1 and Lodestone Golem for a fast win.
Out:
-1 Tabernacle
-3 Powder Keg / Ratched Bomb
In:
+4 Revoker (for just trying to punch in the damage fast)
Sneak Attack
They usually lose to a resolved Ensnaring Bridge in the first game. So try to land one safely or keep it in hand and reveal it to Show and Tell. After sideboard they will usually bring some bounce spell like Echoing Truth or Wipe Away. Sometimes they even side out Show and Tells for Through the Breaches, so resolving the Ensnaring Bridge fast is really important in game 2&3.
Out:
-1 Tabernacle
-4 Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb
In:
+ 4 Phyrexian Revoker (Naming Sneak Attack or Griseldaddy)
+ 1 Cursed Totem (stops Griseldaddys card draws)
Jund
This is one difficult matchup. They have Dr.Shamans, Decays, Wasteland, discards and burn spell to kill our revokers and golems. I don't even have a good sideboard strategy against them, let's try to work something out?
Out:
-4 Sphere of Resistance
-2 Chalice of the Void (if you're on the draw)
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (Deathrite Shaman & Liliana)
+1 Cursed totem
+1 Tabernacle
Lands
Lands is not so bad what it first seems. On the play the Chalice on 1 also does a lot of damage to them. Best way to victory is often Lodestone Golem, but it may take a hit from Krosan Grip after sideboard.
Out:
-1 Tabernacle
-3 Rathed Bomb / Powder Keg
In:
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Spellskite (Decay decoy)
ANT (Storm)
Our mainboard is pretty sweet against these kinds of decks.
Out:
-1 Tabernacle
-3 Ensnaring bridge
-2 Rathed Bomb / Powder Keg
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (Naming Lion's Eye Diamond)
+2 Tormod's Crypt
Elves
Try to get the Chalice of The Void x=1 here as soon as possible.
Out:
-2 Ensnaring Bridge (They're going to find the Reclamation Sage at some point and instakill with Behemot)
-2 Crucible
-3 Tangle Wire
In:
+1 Cursed Totem
+1 Tabernacle
+2 Ratched Bomb / Powder Keg
+1-2 Phyrexian Revoker (I don't even know what is the best target to name here?)
Burn
This is a bit hard because of Goblin Guide, Price of Progress and especially Sulfuric Vortex! Try to get one of your bombs to 3 because Vortex will otherwise end you! It also stops the lifegain from Zuran Orbs.
Out:
-3 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Tangle Wire (This doesn't necessarily do anything since they have so much instant spells)
In:
+2 Zuran Orb
+2 Spellskite
+1 Ratched Bomb / Powder Keg
MUD
Our big brother! Try to get to the infinite Wastelands via Crucible of the Worlds since they have only nonbasic lands in their deck.
Out:Reanimator
4 Lodestone Golem (These are useless here)
In:
+4 Phyrexian Revoker (Gotta shut down that Metal Worker before it's too late)
Out:
-3 Ratched Bomb / Powder Keg
In:
+2 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Cursed Totem (Stopping Griselbrands card draws)
Grixis Delver (Grixis Control?)
I'm pretty new to this matchup but I feel that their number one wincon is either Delver or Young Pyromancer. Try to land the Chalice on 1. Also good to know, they don't usually have more than one or max two basic lands in their decks.
Out:
-1 Lodestone Golem
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Sphere of Resistance
In:
+2 Rathed Bomb / Powder Keg
+1 Tabernacle
+1 Caltrops
Foodchain
Try to disable their Shamans and get a bomb to 3 counters to blow up the Food Chain. They have 3-4 Abrupt Decays in the mainboard, so prepare to lose some artifacts. Sphere of Resistance disables their infinite mana combo with Food Chain and Misthollow Griffin.
Out:
-2 Ensnaring Bridge (They have ways to bounce this back to your hand if they combo out)
-1 Tabernacle
In:
+1 Cursed Totem (Deathrite Shaman)
+2 Spellskite (Divert Decays)
Death and Taxes
Pretty hard matchup (or maybe even the hardest) because of Thalia, Wasteland and maindeck Phyrexian Revokers. Bombs are obviosly good here if they don't get revoked. Try to land a fast Ensnaring Bridge and take control of the board before it's too late.
Out:
-4 Sphere of Resistance (These will F*** up your game combined with Thalia from the opponent)
-2 Lodestone Golem
In:
+1 Caltrops
+2 Powder Keg / Ratched Bomb
+2 Phyrexian Revoker (Aether Vial, Jitte)
+1 Tabernacle
So what do you think?
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