Saito's list is geared for a very specific gauntlet expectation. Some of the choices seem extremely narrow, and I'd venture to guess that he was expecting to see a lot of combo and Miracles, and also the choice to run 3 Submerge is a bit narrow (though Submerge is certainly a huuuugggeee blowout when it's good.) 4 Dark Confidant is also a fairly big commitment, and I'm not sure that BUG needs all that much more assistance with beating combo/miracles -- seems like 1-2 Sylvan Library can do a functionally similar thing without the same risk and then you have more slots to deal with Midrange and other miscellaneous problems.
The Saito build runs the risk of meeting a bad/mediocre matchup and then not having any or enough SB tools to handle games 2/3. There are also some sideboard cards that are huge blowouts as a singleton that are worth the slots (e.g. Null Rod). I agree that Goddik's list seems quite a bit more capable, even though the results may seem skewed. I think Saito's 75 was a good choice for *this* tournament and going into it with a few byes, but it's not a list I would recommend for smaller or mid-size local tournaments.
I mean, Saito was a win away from top 8 and Calcano's hot draws aside, he'd probably have been there, so while his build certainly doesn't excite me in any way, I honestly don't think it is bad.
For this week, I am toying with the idea of running the Stifle build, just to keep my local meta on it's toes. I'll see how I feel as we get closer to Friday.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
That's too bad. What kind of matches did you get?Originally Posted by 'Nilla Pac
What was your list?
Oh no, don't get me wrong -- the list is fine. Dark Confidant is definitely a strong option and I can see where the full play set could be helpful. The sideboard just seems otherwise slightly lacking. For example, Grixis will be a rougher matchup than it typically would be since you can't bring in Submerge and have very few answers to a resolved Gurmag Angler. There are just a few tweaks that I would definitely want to do if I were bringing the deck to my local events.
I think 4 Dark Confidant might be a key component towards making the Shardless BUG matchup more favorable. Toxic Deluge aside, that deck generally has to deal with creatures 1-for-1, so Bob could help TA keep up with their card advantage. Envelop also serves as a hard counter for AVision (and Deluge, among others).
I would definitely want to fit a Sylvan Library somewhere in the 75. It'd be helpful with managing damage from dark confidant triggers.
I think the real conclusion to draw from both Saito's list (and here I agree with wcm8 - it's clearly been tumed for a specific anticipated metagame) and Goddik's more general list is that the format is as midrangey as its been since DRS was printed. I'm not sure what this means for building this or any other BUG deck yet, but having big, hard-to-answer threats clearly matters at least as much as tempo right now, as doea having a reliable sideboard plan for grinding out the midgame.
On that note, I've been on SB Loam + Tar Pit and they've been excellent for that purpose. Wasteland recursion is surprisingly not terrible against Lands if you keep them off Manabond and Exploration and makes Punishing Fire far more manageable while you look for graveyard hate. It's also huge in the BGx pseudo-mirror and backbreaking in the actual BUG Delver mirror. I imagine it's also great against Grixis since they also lack a permanent solution to Tar Pit and their Bolts are already taxed.
Taking this to my local tournament tonight:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Gurmag Angler
1 True-Name Nemesis
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
Sideboard:
2 Spell Pierce
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Disfigure
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dread of Night
1 Dismember
1 Life from the Loam
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
Hopefully with the True-Name Nemesis, 2 Surgical, 1 Loam, 1 Pithing Needle, and 1 Clique from the sideboard I will be able to win against lands. Other than that I have to worry about mentor miracles, sneak attack, infect, grixis delver, 4c delver, shardless bug, ANT, and uwr stoneblade. Let you guys know how it goes.
I finished 10-4-1 with no byes at the grand prix.
Day 1.
(W) Esper Deathblade
(W) Merfolk
(W) Sneak & Show
(W) MUD splashing red for Goblin Welder
(L) Shardless
(W) Merfok
(DRAW) Miracles
(W) Miracles
(W) Grixis Delver
Day 2:
(L) Shardless
(W) Death & Taxes
(L) Death & Taxes
(W) Miracles
(L) Miracles
(W) Storm - ANT
My list:
4 Delver
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tombstalker
1 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disfigure
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rain Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
2 Golgari Charm
1 Dread of Night
1 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Flusterstorm
1 Envelop
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Murderous Cut
1 Chill
Not sure about the sideboard, until about an hour before the event I had a stack of 25 or so cards I was trying to decide between for the last few slots.
Mini report:
Round 1: Crushed by Pox (this is a tough matchup to sideboard for, if anyone could give me a guide that would be awesome).
Round 2: Crushed Grixis Delver
Round 3: Crushed UWR stoneblade (with maindeck blood moon at that, our meta is pretty inbred).
Good for 2nd place due to 6 people, and a lot of other people drew unintentionally (that is what happens when you have a durlde metagame with Lands, Pox, UWR Blade, and Bant Stoneblade).
Awesome report, thanks!
And congrats on the Uh, the uh...lose the game trigger :)
So I have a question about budget builds. I do have Forces and two Wastelands and want to build the Hymn version of the deck. No duals or goyfs though. What can I get away with playing? I know duals would be priority due to the reserved list, then on to goyfs? Not really sure what to run in the meantime though. I'm not shy, I'll run shocks while I save for duals ;)
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The lack of both duals and Goyfs probably makes this deck on a budget not a very good choice. If I had to build something though, I'd go with the Stifle version like 'Nilla Pac posted just above and substitute Confidants for Goyfs (and adding some more maindeck removal). It's not going to be great, but I think the Hymn version would be basically unplayable without Goyf.
If you can live with losing Hymn (and my feeling is you'd probably have to be be actually competitive) I would look more at bUrg Tempo using Young Pyromancer to replace Goyf.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
You need the Duals to truly make Hymn work. Stick with BURG, you could lean towards the Stifle build, and also look at using Mongoose and Young Pyro as a replacement for Goyf.
I'm really just looking for something to mess around with while I save for duals and goyfs. I'm not looking to win any GPs or anything. I was going to go with UW Stoneblade but that's a whole different animal (tundras etc).
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I've been doing testing for SCG NJ and have been trying out the Stifle version of BUG since I have a RUG background. I've found that the lands matchup is pretty abysmal. I knew going into this that this matchup was bad, but RUG at least has Mongoose to dodge maze and bolts to close the game out. BUG has 1-2 TNNs and I guess Stifling Maze of Ith to get in with Tarmogoyf? Is there anything else I'm missing to avoid this matchup being a bye for my opponent?
Last edited by Xerlic; 11-12-2015 at 11:24 AM.
Well, preboard, I am pretty sure you just lose. Post board, it's really going to depend on your sideboard configuration. The Lands matchup, even though I don't usually run the Stifle version, almost always has two Surgical Extractions, a Pithing Needle, and a Winter Orb. Believe me that Winter Orb is going to ruin their day. I think in the Stifle version you should also have a Life from the Loam in the board which can also help. Heck, I usually even bring in my Null Rod, because, while it isn't great, Daze is usually pretty bad.
What does your sideboard look like?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Here's my latest configuration. Obviously, nothing is set in stone hence the purpose of testing.
2 Disfigure
1 Dread of Night
1 Flusterstorm
2 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Sylvan Library
2 Thoughtseize
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Can't Remember. I believe it's either a second Flusterstorm or an Envelop.
Winter Orb sounds like a fantastic idea and also helps with the Miracles matchup. I've gone back and forth with Loam when I play RUG, but I can also give it a shot in BUG. Thanks.
My reasoning for almost always having a second Surgical is that in almost every matchup where you need it, you absolutely have to have it or you lose. Dredge, Lands, Reanimator, Oops, even Jund where you can really lose to Punishing Fire.
Winter Orb is also useful versus Couldpost decks, or MUD, in addition to Miracles. I think it's a great sideboard card at the moment, I'd definitely be packing one in almost any Delver deck.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Winter Orb is fantastic. I started with one in my SB then bumped it up to two, it gives you a great edge vs big mana decks.
Current SB is
2 Dread of Night
1 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Flusterstorm
1 Null Road
2 Winter Orb
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Jitte
1 Illness in the Ranks
1 Submerge
Although I'm not going to lie, I haven't played BUG Delver since DTT got banned (Shardless is good again). The Illness in the Ranks at least should be replaced.
Not to mention that Probe goes well with Stifle too.
I was never really impressed with Flusterstorm out of the board. I don't really like too much soft permission, I find they can often play around or through it. Our boards differ a great deal because of our metas too. I do like Golgari Charm though, because most people forget the "hidden" regenerate your creatures mode.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
The double Black for Casualties kind of sucks, especially since there is no Bayou, but it does also allow you some "techy" plays like swinging your Goyfs into theirs so they have to block, then Casualties to kill them after damage.
I agree though, with True-Name, I think Charm is just too much of a non-bo.
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
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