Since when has legality stopped anyone? Black Lotus easily casts a Siege Rhino amirite? ;)
-Matt
I'm fairly new to the forums here so forgive me if I'm being crazy.Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I have an odd thought about this quote above.
This quote is in a chain of add this, but this, so i add that for this thing but than I need that.
Isn't one of the greatest strengths of this deck to avoid the hate that does exist. Everyone is playing wasteland so we play basics, lots of Karakas so we beat down with our non legend monsters and so on.
What i am trying to say is that what you leave out of a list is as important as what you include. I love all the cool bits and pieces we can play but the truth is with as many cards that are available to us (in legacy) unless a cards has a very important role to play, if it is weak to something common in the format we should likely not include it. Now I am not saying we should restrict ourselves in building but instead dig deeper into whats out there. Perhaps this cards is bad because bolt or Karakas but there is likely a card that has a similar effect that doesn't care about bolt or Karakas.
On a different note I love vindicate as well because of flexibility and ability to deal with a wide number of decks. What I am trying to say is when building we should try to maximize our flexibility and restrict our weaknesses. I only played 2 colors and played a ton of basics, but because of the huge card pool to pull from i felt like i could face almost any deck (which proved to be incorrect).
I'm honestly still sold the best version of g/b/w starts with 4 rhino 1 sigarda 1 nightmare and 3 equips and fills in from there. Angler is a card now so thrun is weaker, dig is gone so cabal therapy and deed actually generate card advantage, miracles and shardless are back on top. Trampling swords seemed under valued by the community. Case and point since siege rhinos printing there is no good reason to play any six drop. Tasigur and meren shenanigans are more reinventing the wheel imo we already have stronghold and nightmare i fail to see how they are better options in place of existing options or simply playing more disruption if they are in additon to exsisting options.
I understand and agree to a degree.(Dr fkn Seuss over here)
We are getting a bit cute but I will say that nightmare and equipment are not where I want to be at this moment. They seem like value but not in all positions. Painful truths and ajani mentor have been insane for me in all situations. Neither of them get swept up by deed and I can rely on what they will do. If I cast a sword and it resolves, only for it to get decayed when I go to equip it, I'm gonna turn down for what(aka be mad). We lost mana, value and most importantly turned on a previously dead card.
I going to replace my Thrun for the new commander. It do a lot more work
A quick note from my (limited) experience so far with Nic Fit w/ Stoneforge Mystics: I haven't had my equipment bite many Abrupt Decays because most players are so quick to blow up your Stoneforge Mystic (they're afraid you'll cheat in Batterskull if you untap with it) and because most people don't have enough experience against Nic Fit to realize we'll just hard-cast the Batterskull a turn or two later. That said, I wouldn't play equipment without SFM to tutor it up, I'd just run planeswalkers for value or 187-type creatures and spells. A Rhino suited up with a Jitte and a Batterskull is a thing of grindy beauty, however. Similarly, I think the value of Thrun goes way up if you are playing equipment and way down if you aren't, for obvious reasons.
In the Jund build of nic-fit:
Is Kolgath's command or painfull turth the best card as a one of?
For reference this is my list.
Creatures 16
3 vet
2 drs
1 teeg
1 ooze
1 sfm
1 qpm
1 courser
1 mentor
4 rhino
1 sigarda
selection 8
3 top
3 zenith
1 intent
1 nightmare
disruption 15
4 therapy
3 decay
1 path
1 plow
1 f charm
1 deed
1 deluge
1 pulse
1 sofi
1 jitte
lands 22
2 bayou
2 savanna
1 scrubland
1 badlands (dont own a tiger)
2 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 karakas
1 dryad arbor
1 phrexian tower
1 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
Sb 15
2 teeg
1 cannonist
1 dryad militant
1 k grip
1 deed
1 deluge
2 thoughtseize
2 slaughter games
1 solas
3 open
The funeral charm is a concession to wanting the 3rd one mana removal spell and a fifth piece of maindeck discard. All modes on it are relevant it can snag a terminus with the trigger on the stack, fufills a critical mass of discard vs storm and burn, can get sigarda around a wall of strix or act as a surprise shock when paired with rhino. The other odd selection is the geist. He is a certified jace killer having a hasted zenithable threat especially with equipment matters vs mircles and shardless him + eot dryad arbor help make up for the lack of a maindeck pulse.
Mentor is the most recent addition originally i had been toying with a slightly different version with knights and titania to try and go wide mentor seemed to solve that desire without requiring any additional support it is currently untested.
Last edited by uncletiggy; 11-22-2015 at 01:11 PM.
Took top 16 at Mythic, good for $50. Not sure where exactly, but I'm guessing 11th-14th range. Played my last posted list.
Matchups were:
BUG Delver (L) - punted hard in g3, totally my fault
Grixis Omni (W)
Infect (W)
TES (L) - Bryant Cook, very insanely close/good match.
Grixis Delver w/Deathrites (W)
Reanimator (W)
I'll post a detailed report tomorrow.
Very nice arianrhod! I actually played your list today at my local legacy event. Had a couple card different..
went 2-2 for the day. (only 4 rounds for our weekly).
Lost to infect 0-2
Won vs some modern zombie garbage (wasnt even a match)
Lost to Sneak and Show 1-2
Won vs Death and Taxes 2-0
The round vs sneak and show was winnable.. sometimes they just draw the nuts.. but I seem to be terrible vs infect.. they jsut always seem to blitz me so hard.. would love to hear your strategy vs that deck.
very fun list!
PS meren is amazing.
I forgot to write the tournament report, but Truth is an excellent card in midrange and control decks that can play it. It was so good against the blue decks all tournament; do not underestimate the power.
Yeah, I know Truth is a good card, I got to play it sometimes and drawing 3 cards i awesome. I was just wondering if command was in the same powerlevel.
Doing different things, but I'd honestly rather draw 3 cards raw.
-Matt
Okay, detailed report.
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer
3 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Baneslayer Angel
1 Sun Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Vindicate
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Taiga
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
//sb
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Thoughtseize
3 Slaughter Games
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Golgari Charm
1 Tsunami
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Engineered Plague
1 Krosan Grip
As noted, this is the same list that I last posted. I kind of wanted to find room for another removal spell maindeck, but I ended up not being able and just went with what I had.
Round 1: Maxwell with BUG Delver
He wins the die roll, and leads USea -> Delver. I play a Forest and a Top, he Dazes it. K. He proceeds to curve DRS -> Goyf -> Liliana -> Force backup while I draw nothing but lands. I think I drew one non-land card the entire game :|
Game two I keep the following hand:
Bayou, Vet, Top, GSZ, E.Wit, Tsunami, Decay. I opt to play the Top on turn 1, while he Thoughtseizes me and takes the Vet. Annoying, but w/e. I naturally draw a Forest. I think I Zenithed up a DRS, and then he Needled my Top. I blew that up with Decay, and we went back and forth for a while. I eventually got a Therapy off, checking for Forces and hitting 3x Decays on the way back. Rhino trampled over a TNN, but he had a disfigure to finish it off. Baneslayer cleaned up the game.
Game three was my only really bad time of the day. He led with a Delver. I played a Vet, which he Dazed, then he untapped into a Deathrite. I played a land, and tanked. I had a couple of options. I could play another Veteren, or I could hold up Decay, or I could Zenith out a Deathrite of my own. I immediately concluded that the Zenith was the worst line -- it lost to 2nd Daze and realistically a Deathrite war isn't where I wanted to be anyway. My instincts were screaming at me that he was going to Brainstorm on upkeep to flip the Delver, and I could really get him with Decay if I held that up. For some reason, though, I decided to play the Vet. I still to this moment haven't figured out why I did that.
Long story short, he Brainstormed on upkeep like I knew he would, and I ended up having to do something else on the following turn, and then he Hymned me and hit both my Vindicate and Decay in my hand, which left me with land + courser. Courser resolved, but proceeded to just draw me garbage until I was dead. That stupid Delver did basically all of the damage to me that entire game. If I'd just listened to my instincts I could've time walked him and prevented an eventual loss. Instead, I'm a dumbass.
The good? news is that my opponent proceeded to crush the rest of the swiss, and was in 1st or 2nd seed going into top 8, I believe.
Round 2: Zach with Grixis OmniTell
I was pretty confused game one. He led Proge into Volc, which immediately sounded warning klaxons. He played some cantrips while I tried to beat him down as quickly as possible. He added an Underground Sea at some point, and then Burning Wished for Show and Tell. Okay, mystery solved. All told I got him to 7 before he went off, with the help of a turn 3 Rhino off DRS. He was dead the following turn: DRS drain + rhino/vet swing for 5. Close.
In comes infinite sideboard hate.
Game two was an exercise in "almost good enough, actually good enough." He had some cantrips, but I actually drew Therapies this game. I eventually deployed a Canonist to join my board of other dorks, and Vindicated his lone Volcanic Island. He drew another Volcanic off the Top, and slammed the Pryoclasm that was apparently the last card in his hand. Oof. It's okay, though, because I can (and do) Zenith up Sigarda to close the game out. He doesn't draw runner runner combo cards, and we go to game 3.
Game three I actually saw Slaughter Games, and took out his Omnis. This gave me perfect info on his deck, and I still had things to worry about -- he had a pair of Emrakuls and a pair of Griselbrands in the deck, with 4 Show and Tells (he'd wished for one, I'd discarded it and then later an Emrakul which shuffled back in). I manage to beat him down to 3, and then Zenith up a Rhino to finish him off before he recovers.
Round 3: Shawn with Infect
My opening hand is insane vs fair.dec, so I hope that my opponent is playing nice and keep. My opponent leads Pendelhaven into Noble Hierarch. Welp.
Luckily for me, the reason that my hand was insane vs fair.dec was because I had all three Pernicious Deeds in it. I blocked the first two Glistener Elf hits with Vets (sadly they didn't die because of the Pendelhaven). The first Deed gets Forced, and the second gets Stifled -- the Stifle costs me 6 poison, which was the first damage I'd taken that game. Good thing I had number three, which joins the party. Some combat fuckery happens, and I deal with his Glistener Elf by double blocking it with Courser + E.Wit, forcing him to start using his Inkmoth instead -- the reason being that I want to Deed away his Inkmoth. I eventually kill him with Rhinos while never letting him connect with another creature for the rest of the game.
I'll note that I had a sweet line that I REALLY wanted to take, but chose not to because I Therapied him and saw a Crop Rot. I had the ability at one point to break Deed @1 to kill 1 Veteran + 1 Deathrite + Glistener + Noble, and I really wanted to Zenith up Meren, but I'd therapied and knew he had a Crop Rotation. I'm like 95% sure that Infect plays a Karakas maindeck, so I just got a Rhino instead. Sad times.
Game two my opening hand once again had two Deeds. Sick life. Unfortunately, my opponent has two Pithing Needles. I thoughtseize the first one on turn 1, but he draws + Probes into another one. I go to 8 poison this game before stabilizing with a Golgari Charm to kill his 2x Glistener draw. Decay takes out a Blighted Agent while Therapy + Flashback takes out another that was lurking in his hand, and then he was out of gas. Qasali comes out and punches for 3 a bunch of times, while threatening to free up a Deed that I'd played into the Needle at instant speed if it was ever needed. It wasn't, and I was 2-1.
Round 4: Bryant Cook with TES
Bryant and I have played many times, and despite my joking that I was probably just dead on turn 1 every game, we usually have really good matches. If he writes a report for Mythic, I'm sure his account will be better and more detailed, but I'll do the best I can.
Game one we both mulled to 6. He plays USea and a pair of LEDs, and passes, scaring me quite a bit in the process. I deploy a couple of Veterans for early beatdowns while he's stuck on one land. A Deed@0 takes out his LEDs -- I chose not to crack it for 1 both because I wanted to get those LEDs out of the equation as quickly as I could, and because he was still on one land and I had a feeling he wanted my Vets to die so he could get his Swamp and get to 2 mana. I draw into a Therapy finally once he's at 5 life vs my 22 (thanks, Rhino). I Therapy him, naming Dark Ritual, and see Infernal, Probe, Duress, 2x Rite of Flame, 2x Chrome Mox. I decide it's worth giving him one mana to take away the Infernal, since it's his only business, so I flashback off a Vet, which leaves lethal in play thanks to Rhino + Vet.
He draws for his turn and Probes me, and then proceeds to reveal that he drew double Burning Wish. He tries to get something going with Past in Flames, but he's short of being able to do anything and scoops it up.
Game 2 is pretty /cry. I have a slower hand with some hate and a Therapy. I call Dark Ritual again and miss. His hand is Infernal, Wish, AdNaus, Petal, Chrome, Mire. He draws an LED and Infernals for a second copy, then plays them to dodge Therapy flashback. Unfortunately, I don't draw into a 1 drop, a 2 drop, or a Green Sun, and he gets to untap unmolested. He chooses to Duress me, which reveals the Mindcensor in my hand to him. The following turn he goes in on Burning Wish and makes 10 goblins while hoping I don't draw into a Deed. I take out two of the Goblins with the Mindcensor and a Vet, but fail to draw into a sweeper or a Rhino. I do manage to give him a good scare, though -- my last draw is Vindicate, so I tap three and point at his goblins. We have a good laugh, and it's off to three.
I had a really strong start this game, and Bryant was pretty resigned for a long time. It involved Therapy (which missed again, revealing AdNaus, PEtal, LED, I.Tutor, 2x Mire, Tendrils), into Vet (taking the AdNaus), into Canonist. Canonist got to stick around a couple of turns, long enough for me to Zenith up Meren. He'd used basically all of his resources to Tutor for Wish to get Massacre over that time. He Massacred, killing the Canonist, but didn't have a lot else to do yet. Meren had one counter on her, and I had one turn where if I'd found a sacrifice outlet (I would've even Deeded@1) to off the Vet again to get Meren to 2, I would've definitely won -- Meren recurring Canonist would be insane. I didn't, though, so I decided that the best line I could take was to play the Elspeth, redbull Meren, and put him to 7. I knew the slight way back into the game that he had was to recur the AdNaus, so I wanted him to have as little life to work with as possible. He got the best draw he possibly could (a Dark Ritual), which let him start going off with Past in Flames -> Ad Nauseum. His first AdNaus flip was an LED. He dropped to 3 off the PiF, but had enough to Tendrils me for exact.
Absolutely a hell of a match -- probably one of the closest I've ever played vs TES.
Round 5: Michael with Grixis Delver (with Deathrites)
Both of these games were pretty academic, so I don't have many notes on them. He was playing Delver. I was playing Nic Fit. He didn't nut me and I didn't punt, therefore I won. I successfully Therapied a Stifle in game one, which cleared the way for me to Deed away my 2x Vets + his DRS + Delver + Pyromancer. I then untapped curving Rhino into Sun Titan. Our game two was basically a cripple fight -- I had a Qasali vs his DRS, and that was basically the entire game. We just disrupted each other constantly beyond that. I eventually drew into more gas and killed him.
Round 6: Nick Patnode with Reanimator
Patnode and I have also played a lot of matches. We joke that there are days I beat him, and there are days he beats me, because of his deck selection. Sometimes he plays Shardless or RUG, other times he plays Reanimator or TES. He wins the die roll and leads USea -> Ponder. Okay, Reanimator then.
I Therapy him for Reanimate and hit, seeing 2x Careful Study, BStorm, Animate Dead, and Misty. He draws, plays a land, and passes. He expects me to do Veteran things to flashback the Therapy, so he's holding up Brainstorm. I Zenith up a DRS instead, and pass. He reveals that he'd hid an Entomb on top of his deck with the Ponder on turn 1, and makes a Griselbrand. I try to Vindicate it, but he has the Force. Oh well.
Games two and three was batshit crazy. Game two his hand is pretty awful, and I make it worse -- I play a Deathrite, which he Forces, and then I zenith up the second one. I also have a Karakas in play, so he decides to Entomb/Exhume Sire of Insanity, which lets me get back my 2nd Deathrite. The chaos that ensues is ridiculous. 20 minutes of durdling later, I'd managed to block (or absorb hits from) his Sire while controlling the graveyard with my Deathrites. Multiple Veterans went off, and I had Sylvan to help keep my cards up as best I could. I eventually Zenithed out Meren, and she won the game for me. Turns out Meren is awfully good vs Sire of Insanity.
Game three we ended up in a similar state, except via Careful Study I think? Either way, Sire came out again -- but this time he had one of my Deathrites while I had the other (He'd killed one early and then reanimated it for himself). He eventually added a Grave Titan to the mix, but I had enough dorks in play to stall until I landed a Baneslayer (Courser helped me draw into it), which was able to win the game in one hit -- Mindcensor had been poking him in the air and I'd been aggro-durdling him. Two swings with a Grave Titan weren't enough to win the game, and I found myself 4-2, good for top 16.
So, to recap, the only bad game I had all day, I feel, was my r1g3 vs BUG where I just shot myself in the foot. Beyond that, I played against 4 combo decks and beat 3 (almost beating the 4th). The other fair matchup went exactly as it should.
The takeaways:
-) Meren didn't come up a ton, but a lot of that was because of matchups. I was very happy to have her in the list, and she'll continue to be present.
-) I want another 2-drop, but I don't know what I want it to be, since all of the options are bleh.
-) Qasali overperformed, and I didn't even play vs Miracles or Stoneblade.
-) I had a couple of times where I should've gotten Nissa and didn't because I didn't set her up properly, which is a play error on my part (ie I fetched basic forests too much and didn't leave fetches in play for her).
-) Sun Titan was bad on the day, but I think that's almost entirely matchup-driven. You can't realistically expect to play vs 4 combo decks when the format is heavily miracles and shardless -- and he's far from dead vs delver, too.
-) Vindicate only came up once (nuking a volc vs grixis omni). If it had been a Pulse, I might've beat Bryant in 2 (would've cleared goblins). At the same time, I didn't play vs Miracles or DnT. Hmm.
-) The sideboard was ridiculous. I'd say it's something like 13-14/15 correct. The Elspeth is really the only thing that I'm unsure about...maybe the Plague, but I like the idea of the plague.
So, things to be improved upon:
-) Probably -1 Courser, +1 2-drop. Courser is good, and I was never really unhappy to see it, but I need space for another 2-drop, and the 2nd Courser is the only thing I really think of right now.
-) I still want another removal spell -- probably a Pulse but possibly a Deluge, an Abzan, or a Judgment. Still no idea where to find the room for it.
-) The Elspeth in the board probably should just come out and be replaced with a more flexible card.
It's possible that the 2-drop problem just can't be solved right now, and the 2nd Courser (if I do end up cutting that, which I'm far from sure about), should be the 4th removal spell.
Either way, it was definitely a good day. Could've been slightly better, but I'm not going to complain. This list is really solid, and a blast to play. It just needs a little tiny bit more tuning and then it should be pretty close to perfect (at least, perfect for my playstyle and tastes).
Last edited by Arianrhod; 11-15-2015 at 03:20 PM.
What do you want from the two drop? Scooze goyf and teeg instantly come to mind I'd consider them all slightly better then the second courser.
Ooze> all.
Thanks for the long, nice read!
It seems you missed listing the two Coursers.
Ooze is a very good two drop, surprised to see it's not in your list. Another two drop to consider could be Strangleroot Geist. Not very strong, certainly not compared to Ooze, but it does offer a way to get rid of early Lilianas, punish Miracles for tapping out for Jace, double trading or double chumping vs creature based assaults to buy time and vs combo decks allowing t2 flashbacked Therapy + hitting for three for a faster clock.
awesome write up!! thanks for tuning the list.. so far its been my favorite abzan build to play.. so definately going to keep at it :)
Good eye. I fixed that Re@Coursers.
My biggest problem with Ooze is more playstyle than anything else. I tend to use my graveyard fairly heavily. The same is true in vintage -- I wasn't running more than 1 each of Dig and Cruise even before the restriction, because I tend to play to my Yawg Will. I didn't want to weaken my Will even if it meant that some games I might not need to Will. Kind of counterintuitive, perhaps, but that's how I think.
That being said, Ooze is definitely the best green two-drop for Nic Fit at the moment. I might put him in just as a purely offensive bro -- never use him on myself, but he'd usually have something to eat from the opponent I guess.
Strangleroot isn't awful. I don't think it's where I really want to be, but it's not awful.
Goyf is not an option on the table. Card is awful.
The problem with Teeg is primarily that I absolutely hate turning off my Green Suns. Nic Fit is, in my mind, a very Green Sun oriented deck. If you're playing Nic Fit, unless you're doing something different within the archetype, you're playing the best Green Sun deck in the format, and your list should reflect that. Even if Teeg hurts other decks sufficiently, turning off one of the best cards in your deck is a no-no to me. Also, I've been burned before by running Teeg alongside 4-drop combo hate (Slaughter Games / Cranial Extraction, Nether Void, Tsunami, etc), and I'd rather have the 4-drop effect.
The reason for 2x Courser in the first place, by the way, was because you wanted to draw one naturally. You don't want to have to use a GSZ to get him in play, but he's still a card that you want to have in the deck and you want to get out. That kind of requires him to be a 2-of. He was strong enough that it may be correct to rethink that a little, though -- he might be fine to actually Zenith for.
Fair, but he's the nutters against Miracles and Combo, so you have to balance that out.
Why Sakura Tribe Elder, besides being a badass? Is it your backup in case Vet doesn't go off?
-Matt
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