[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[NLTizzle]

Hey all,

After lurking this thread for the past year I'm making my first post (in this thread) with my GP SeaTac report. http://www.theepicstorm.com/enter-th...e-11-6-9-2015/. Now that I have an account, I'm hoping to post more reports in the future.

-Donny

[Pelikanudo]

@F.Fortune:

I have to agree that K.Grip both answers SDT and C.B. but in some way A.D. also anwers SDT - at least in the combo turn to avoid Fluster on top for example, note that A.D. also hits M.Mages which Krosan Grip doesn't.
Also, I don't know how peopple conceives C.M, but for me is an accelerant also (sure this also has other applications), I I would cut C.M. I would play C.Ritual instead and maybe some copy of RoF.

On general notes about my experience from the last months from the banning of DTT: (to whom may interest)

I've been facing Tempo in all its variants and the game how it develops sometines is just curious...

The other day for example I faced a Grixis Tempo and the games developed:
I was able to cast A.N. from 13 lifes and died to a revealed EtW, however he had 3 Delver of secrets which didnt flip in 2 turns! As that torunament I was testing 2 Autums Veil instead I took out pyroclasm, which specifically this game would have bought me time to win through A.N. he had also other bear in hand which could have been discarded via my C.Therapy - at this point it was not relevant.
The second game was just imposible - he had FoW, Fluster and next he drew C.Therapy. What I think is that I should have won 1stgame.

The last day I faced Grixis Tempo, this was backwards... I just crusehd him 2-0 and I am really liking having Moxes agains this archetype likely the card I hate more from them is C.Therapy... and sure when they draw their lonely Null Rod...

I still haven't seen miracles, BUG Control is just an easy match up UNLESS they draw they onely Null Rod... which heppened to me the 2nd and 3rd game in the match up...

on overall I a happy with my 75, by the momento I will use only 1 Autums veil and still having the pyroclasm in the side.
My last torunament I won 4-1 loosing to Merfolks beacuse of a mistake I made - if any is intereseted I can share this mistake... too much drugs at this point...


Apart, If any by here is going to come to the MKM Madrid, please message me or like, sure talking about Magic bores me as hell, but between rounds we could share some joints and talk about the Universe for example! I'm really thinking in wearing a Death Metal T-Shirt... just to make pepole put me not in combo, however looking at my eyes is like saying - yes I play Storm and the rest of decks just bore me... So much time I don't play Miracles.... I have to convice my friend to not to bring Enchantress, even if it is the Combo version!!

[Bryant Cook]

So I've been playing TES recently and cut Chrome Mox altogether for 15 Lands, 4 Polluted Delta, 4 Bloodstained Mire, 3 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 1 Bayou, 1 Swamp, and I'm starting to think that TES is just ANT with weaker acceleration in exchange for stronger threats at this point. I don't think 2 accelerants that you want to board out every game vs Island.dec is worth losing the MD and SB space any more, and the interesting thing about playing 15 lands is that you can comfortably cast Krosan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to have a way around both Counterbalance and Sensei's Divining Top in a single card.

I think the threat of our speed to our opponent is more important than us realizing it in game, opponent's still mulligan aggressively for Force of Will and we can just grind them out with land drops and Cabal Therapy. I also think counter intuitively to boarding in +2 Empty the Warrens, you're better off boarding out Empty the Warrens and Ad Nauseam in favour of Past in Flames and Tendrils of Agony and playing a second Tendrils of Agony in the board for Burning Wish -> Infernal Tutor natural play lines for 2xTendrils of Agony kills. The thing about Storm is staying unpredictable in terms of whether or not you are going to put Goblins on the board or utilize the graveyard as a resource, that way they are always gambling on what hate to bring in.

For that reason, I've been messng around with cutting wet blankets like SB Thoughtseize and Chain of Vapour for more and more threats, like 3 Empty the Warrens and 2 Tendrils of Agony just to keep adjusting my angles of attack vs Island.dec and relying more on the initiative of the coin flip, stability of Swamp and speed thru' threat density of Empty the Warrens vs D&T.

SB looks like this ATM,

2 Tendrils of Agony
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Bribery
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Reverent Silence
4 Krosan Grip

I think that playing 15 lands with weaker acceleration just makes you a worse version of ANT. Especially considering they're slightly more threat dense than they were before. Not to mention, Ad Nauseam becomes way worse when it isn't a reliable kill when you don't have Past in Flames easily accessible when Ad Nauseam isn't appropriate in a game state.

These things said, I'm back at three Chrome Mox at the moment. Top 8'd a 50 man over the weekend, the list felt fantastic. Faster and more reliable ETWs & Ad Nauseams.

[Final Fortune]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it. I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration so I'm running it ATM.

@Bryant

I had the same assumption before I tested it, but the truth is all of your common match ups are better off without Chrome Mox post-board. T2 Warrens is still good enough vs aggro-control, all I care about is whether or not the land and ritual combinations allow for it and you need Rite of Flame for that. I'm not saying you aren't going to lose games after Ad Nauseam because of not having Chrome Mox in your deck, you may very well, but getting to Ad Nauseam at all is more of an issue fwiw and post-board I'd rather be Grinding Station. For me, it's more about post-board just being more games than pre-board and not having to keep Moxes in vs aggro-control or waste SB space on Lands over the course of a match. ANT isn't really any more threat dense now than what it was, and those threats can't be cast on T2 so I don't think it matters really as a comparison.

All in all I've liked playing the deck this way, it's still easily an entire turn faster than ANT and a little grindier than TES. Vs Bug and anybody who sees Cabal Ritual game 1, it's pretty much a shitty Rite of Flame post-board any way so you may as well split the difference of having a weaker Ritual game 1 and a stronger Ritual games 2/3 with more mana efficient threats. I think even tho Rite of Flame is the weaker Ritual unopposed, nobody boards graveyard hate vs you game 2 so the Past/Tendrils engine is better as a result. It's really mutable and leads opponents into sub-optimal boarding decisions, which is what I think it's main advantage has been.

[Pelikanudo]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it.

I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration.

I have to agree... thats why I am seriously thinking in bringing TNT to the MKM tournament instead of TES (well likely no I just enjoy playing TES...) and increment the number of Grips and decrement Decays. , but long time ago I discarded the idea of playing 4 Krosan in a 13 lands deckbased on A.N... I still play 3 C.M. 12 lands and Gemstones.

For me TNT was a rough deck, I just prefer playing TES and in MKM I'll go with TES.... sure people say that Rite of flame is better for EtW wins, but TNT is f**** powerfull, just try it! now even D.P exists is even more powerfull and gets the most of it because if C.Rituals! I can get you my last list if you want.

EDIT: mmm, maybe I can afford 1 K.Grip instead of 4th Decay...

[tescrin]

After lurking this thread for the past year I'm making my first post (in this thread) with my GP SeaTac report. http://www.theepicstorm.com/enter-th...e-11-6-9-2015/. Now that I have an account, I'm hoping to post more reports in the future.

It's pretty cool but I wish you put just a tiny bit more personality into it.

I start playing Bryant’s game of “What deck is my opponent on?” I put him on a cheap aggro deck.

This would be an exceptional part to tell us why; probably with some humor given the deck you put him on.

Otherwise, well done! (and still a good report)

[Asthereal]

These things said, I'm back at three Chrome Mox at the moment. Top 8'd a 50 man over the weekend, the list felt fantastic. Faster and more reliable ETWs & Ad Nauseams.

Welcome back to the aggressive part of the Storm archetype.

[Final Fortune]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.

[Asthereal]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.

We know. Don't worry.

For reference, my latest TNT list looks like this (I cut the basics, not sure whether that's right though):

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
1 Ad Nauseam /20

4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual /19

4 Duress
3 Cabal Therapy /7

2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Misty Rainforest /14

Sideboard:
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Past in Flames
1 Dark Petition
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Void Snare
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Bayou /15

[Bryant Cook]

There is no "solution" to Miracles, either you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top or you're weak to Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance and a 3cc card on the top of their deck, personally I'd rather be strong vs Sensei's Divining Top and require the opponent to have Sensei's Divining Top, Counterbalance, a 3cc card and prior knowledge of me having Krosnan Grip instead of Abrupt Decay in order to pre-emptively protect his Counterbalance from it. I'm not saying Abrupt Decay is bad at all, play it if you prefer it, but I think that once you have 15 lands that playing Krosan Grip becomes a serious consideration so I'm running it ATM.

@Bryant

I had the same assumption before I tested it, but the truth is all of your common match ups are better off without Chrome Mox post-board. T2 Warrens is still good enough vs aggro-control, all I care about is whether or not the land and ritual combinations allow for it and you need Rite of Flame for that. I'm not saying you aren't going to lose games after Ad Nauseam because of not having Chrome Mox in your deck, you may very well, but getting to Ad Nauseam at all is more of an issue fwiw and post-board I'd rather be Grinding Station. For me, it's more about post-board just being more games than pre-board and not having to keep Moxes in vs aggro-control or waste SB space on Lands over the course of a match. ANT isn't really any more threat dense now than what it was, and those threats can't be cast on T2 so I don't think it matters really as a comparison.

All in all I've liked playing the deck this way, it's still easily an entire turn faster than ANT and a little grindier than TES. Vs Bug and anybody who sees Cabal Ritual game 1, it's pretty much a shitty Rite of Flame post-board any way so you may as well split the difference of having a weaker Ritual game 1 and a stronger Ritual games 2/3 with more mana efficient threats. I think even tho Rite of Flame is the weaker Ritual unopposed, nobody boards graveyard hate vs you game 2 so the Past/Tendrils engine is better as a result. It's really mutable and leads opponents into sub-optimal boarding decisions, which is what I think it's main advantage has been.

I mean, the last two months I was playing 14 and siding into a 15th. I actually found myself getting flooded more than twice an event which was sort of tilting.

It seems that your issues with the deck are what cause others to play different decks, play whatever works for you by all means, I've been testing tons of things the last six months. Lately I'm convinced that infinite amounts of lands arent the way to go, because you're essentially losing your initial strength to become a worse version of another deck. Once your opponents realize you're not as fast (or some that arent bright enough to know the difference) you've lost the advantage.

[Final Fortune]

I mean, the last two months I was playing 14 and siding into a 15th. I actually found myself getting flooded more than twice an event which was sort of tilting.

It seems that your issues with the deck are what cause others to play different decks, play whatever works for you by all means, I've been testing tons of things the last six months. Lately I'm convinced that infinite amounts of lands arent the way to go, because you're essentially losing your initial strength to become a worse version of another deck. Once your opponents realize you're not as fast (or some that arent bright enough to know the difference) you've lost the advantage.

I don't think any version is strictly better than the other at this point because the cards being replaced are functionally equivalent, albeit slightly different, to one another. I just think Chrome Mox puts a strain on board space, and when you are trying to run 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils for the Grinding Station plan you have to start thinking about your main deck from a post board perspective.

I do agree tho' that there's a certain element of "WTF is he playing?" that's probably responsible for why the deck I posted is winning as much as it is tho', it may ware off but it'll take awhile.

[NLTizzle]

It's pretty cool but I wish you put just a tiny bit more personality into it.

This would be an exceptional part to tell us why; probably with some humor given the deck you put him on.

Otherwise, well done! (and still a good report)

Note taken and thanks for reading!

[Lemnear]

TNT is a different deck, structurally what you care about is whether or not your rituals and tutors give you T2 Goblins or not and Cabal Ritual doesn't do that. As soon as you are playing with a 2cc ritual, you are looking at a T3 clock and Burning Wish is the slowest auxillery threat of ANT out of Dark Petition, Grim Tutor and Burning Wish.

Thats the essence of why this deck isn't working. You need 3 IMS' most of the time and lost EtW as an early threat anyways as you can't get double red mana on any reliable base other than LED.

P.S.: I'm about to hate Dark Petition in ANT alltogether

[Pelikanudo]

Thats the essence of why this deck isn't working. You need 3 IMS' most of the time and lost EtW as an early threat anyways as you can't get double red mana on any reliable base other than LED.

P.S.: I'm about to hate Dark Petition in ANT alltogether

Well if you mean that TNT deck is not working, I would prefer to think nobody is testing this... now with D.P in conjuntion to Cabals it gained a lot instead of playing Grim Tutors... EtW in this deck is just a route, the only you need is double red which can be accomplished via LED or Petal or Volcanic or Badlands, sure this is not the main option as it is in TES, in here the main route is like in ANT - a PIF route.

@Asthereal:
What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats and making goods Ad NAuseam.
I would not cut neither 1 swamp and 1 island, I can see playing 1 C.Mox but not so much... as said TNT is more like an ANT deck which has access to a mini toolbox, before Grim Tutor was played, now D.P. is the MVP in the side.
Also the PIF plus Tendrils engine in main is just a must, having access to B.W.-> D.P.-> A.N OR PiF Loop To Tendrils.

I for example in here prefer to play 1 Tropical main instead of 1 bayou. my seond favourite deck in legacy.

Just out of curiosity: Is then people start to playing again 3 C.M.??? if so, I am happy about that...

I wonder If this is the base Bryant is currently playing....
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post895991

[Lemnear]

Its absurd to talk about threat density for Cabal Ritual storm variants right after Dark Petition saw print and solved the dilemma Grim & Wish left for players of that storm subtype.

[Bryant Cook]

I don't think any version is strictly better than the other at this point because the cards being replaced are functionally equivalent, albeit slightly different, to one another. I just think Chrome Mox puts a strain on board space, and when you are trying to run 3 Warrens, 2 Tendrils for the Grinding Station plan you have to start thinking about your main deck from a post board perspective.

I do agree tho' that there's a certain element of "WTF is he playing?" that's probably responsible for why the deck I posted is winning as much as it is tho', it may ware off but it'll take awhile.

I've written a few times why I don't think the multiple Empty plan works in this deck (Essentially we're already known as the Goblin token deck and playing into that doesn't help), but I think you're sacrificing a lot with your sideboard in an attempt to beat Miracles. You're bringing in 4 Krosan Grip, 3 ETW, 2 TOA and possibly 1 PIF. Ten cards! In a match-up with even all of that, that still isn't overwhelmingly favorable. You're losing ground in other match-ups by having such a narrow sideboard.

There are plenty of decks in this format where Chrome Mox is exactly what I want, I think people tend to over exaggerate the number of Miracles/Delver pilots in a given field.

I wonder If this is the base Bryant is currently playing....
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post895991

So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

[Pelikanudo]

So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

Thanks for belonging to your ingnore list, this seems the unique way to just ignore me....!

A difference between you and me is that you NEED to test things to figure out what is the best stuff - I refer mainly on TES Deck basis - I just intuitively know that 3 C.M. belongs to TES. it is curious that in the events you played I was shocked for example that the 1st match up you won vs MUD was because you DREW the 2 C.M in your opening. and other things happened to make you undestand that 3 C.M. belongs to TES. even you seem to play other events right after this one and still played 2 C.M.


@Lemnear:
I talk about Threat density in regards to B.W. and D.P. because D.P. played in multiple makes A.N. worse, this is a difference if you play B.W. instead of D.P.:
What I wrote: What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats AND making goods Ad NAuseam.

I like sometimes the way people uses the 'absurd' word...

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal:
What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats and making goods Ad NAuseam.
I would not cut neither 1 swamp and 1 island, I can see playing 1 C.Mox but not so much... as said TNT is more like an ANT deck which has access to a mini toolbox, before Grim Tutor was played, now D.P. is the MVP in the side.
Also the PIF plus Tendrils engine in main is just a must, having access to B.W.-> D.P.-> A.N OR PiF Loop To Tendrils.

I for example in here prefer to play 1 Tropical main instead of 1 bayou. my second favourite deck in legacy.

It might be incorrect to discuss TNT here, but I'll just respond very briefly. If you want, we can create a separate thread for the deck. Not sure we need to though, since ANT and TES are already very close to each other, and TNT is more or less a hybrid, which could be discussed in both threads. F.i. my TNT list looks like TES with Cabal Ritual instead of Rite of Flame, and Empty the Warrens on side rather than main deck. Other than that it's just a TES list. (I actually feel TNT should be discussed here rather than in the ANT thread, because the misnamed deck ANT almost never uses Ad Nauseam, where both TES and TNT are tuned around it.)

TNT was designed by Team Nijmegen (Tendrils, hence the name). The idea was to tune for a strong Ad Nauseam mainly. Wish was there for flexibility, better threat density and so you didn't need Tendrils main deck, but Cabal Ritual does give you a slightly higher average CMC than Rite, so you kind of need a few Chrome Moxen.

Team Nijmegen, as far as I know, always used basics, but it's not set in stone. You can play controllish by just playing fetches and not -or very selectively- using them. I'm not sure whether we really need the basics. I'll be more certain when the meta settles, but even if everything just goes back to what it was before Cruise and Dig got printed, even then I didn't run basics, and I never lost because of that fact. My TNT list from back then actually worked really well against Canadian Thresh (which should be the deck that capitalizes most on you not having basics).

[Final Fortune]

I've written a few times why I don't think the multiple Empty plan works in this deck (Essentially we're already known as the Goblin token deck and playing into that doesn't help), but I think you're sacrificing a lot with your sideboard in an attempt to beat Miracles. You're bringing in 4 Krosan Grip, 3 ETW, 2 TOA and possibly 1 PIF. Ten cards! In a match-up with even all of that, that still isn't overwhelmingly favorable. You're losing ground in other match-ups by having such a narrow sideboard

There are plenty of decks in this format where Chrome Mox is exactly what I want, I think people tend to over exaggerate the number of Miracles/Delver pilots in a given field.



So... You took my list from two posts above that and made one change to it (something that I had already discussed in the thread), then are claiming for it to be your own? Classic.

You've been added to my ignore list, I don't know why I didn't think to add you to it before.

I never SB all 10 cards at once, I SB in different sets of cards game 2 and game 3 in order to take advantage of the opponent's preconceptions of what I am and am not playing.

[Lemnear]

@Lemnear:
I talk about Threat density in regards to B.W. and D.P. because D.P. played in multiple makes A.N. worse, this is a difference if you play B.W. instead of D.P.:
What I wrote: What I love from TNT is the ability to be more controlling than TES and still having outs to a resolved canonist than ANT, while also beeing high on threats AND making goods Ad NAuseam.

I like sometimes the way people uses the 'absurd' word...

Well, it doesn't imply that you will run DP and AN in one maindeck or that AN is even required in ANT in the first place. In addition I disagree with "good Ad Nauseams" if you need Red & Black mana post Ad Nauseam in a deck w/o chrome moxen or Rites, but higher average cmc and less options to accelate from zero or one mana float. I disagree with the later term of "better ad nauseams" and point to DP in terms of threat density. If you want a fast and yard-independant option while increasing the threat density in ANT, the solution is DP+EtW, not Wishes imo

The GP coverage delivered two picture perfect examples of ANT Ad Nauseams w/o mana floated and TNT is even worse requiring red mana.