[Deck] CounterSliver

[Volt]

Mav: I'm on your side, but relax. Eventually, the deck will prove out.

To keep this post at least marginally on topic, I've been trying to figure out a way to fit the new Gemhide Sliver in the deck, and I just can't make it work. It's too bad it's not: G, All Slivers have "Tap: add 1 mana of any color to your mana pool," 0/1. Then it would be an auto-include.

The Quill Slivers are interesting, but once again probably not quite good enough to make room for in the deck.

[Maverick676]

Yah, Gemhide would be nice. Heck if he ends up being a 2/2 instead of a 1/1 I think he would warrant a slot in the maindeck. I'm planning on testing quill as a three of in chain of vapors spot to see if he's any good.

[Tosh]

Gemhide really doesn't make the cut in this deck. The problem I've seen Mav and Pinder have with the deck is mana flood (with so few land I'm beginning to think that it is cursed) so extra mana would do the deck no justice. On the bright side, I think that the Harmonic Sliver is an auto 3-4 of in the sideboard as it can deal with pretty much anything you would need (Worship, Improving the U/G/w thresh maybe; Jitte, that gay ass card that you would side in null rod for gets destroyed now; and many other things that would be just too good to pass up a way to kill them).

Wednesday I played Pinder with my W/U/B fish deck (play-testing the new Juzam Slivers, they're fucking 5/5's for 4!!!) and completely annihalated him and he got all depressed over it. But here is a fact: the Juzam Sliver WONT BE PLAYED in basically any decks (neither will hivestone). Unless they print a Tivadar's Crusade for sliver and with split second for like 3 mana, slivers will still be a total powerhouse.

[Pinder]

Calm down, Mav. Even if this isn't Tier 1 (which I'll have to agree it isn't just yet), it's still one of the best decks in N&D right now. People see slivers and they're like 'WTF?' and they don't test. I would take Volts advice, and not get so worked up. Anyone can say that this deck sucks. We're the ones that have to prove it doesn't. Our job is significantly harder.

So, back to meaningful discussion land, shall we?

I was playtesting again last night, and I think that maybe I wasn't looking at counterspell enough.There were quite a few times where another hard counter would have been useful. More useful than Chain of Vapor, in fact. I like Chain in that it's a great tempo card in the early game, but it starts to suck mid game if you don't have a Crystalline Sliver out. Having another hard counter could be useful. At first I thought that it was too expensive and clunky, but the fact that this is a hard counter might just make up for that fact. That, and the fact that mid to late game, since all of our lands save 2 produce blue mana, I found that is wasn't that hard to get UU consistently. It could also shore up our matches against decks that run board sweep and fat creatures. I'll admit that this deck is more geared to beat Tier 1 than it is to beat things like FS and AS, but you have to understand that it's made by three dudes who live on the west coast. I've never seen FS or AS at any tournament I've ever been to. I do see Goblins and Thresh a lot, though. Maybe that's why the deck is geared to beat them.

But where was I heading? Oh yeah, counterspell. I'm going to test it in the CoV slot, and let you know how it does. We haven't decided who's going to run it at the tourney tonight, but we should probably have another report up by tomorrow or so.

EDIT:

Wednesday I played Pinder with my W/U/B fish deck (play-testing the new Juzam Slivers, they're fucking 5/5's for 4!!!) and completely annihalated him and he got all depressed over it.

Okay, I did get a little depressed, but here's why: Klaan was running Plague ('Juzam') Sliver, Crystalline Sliver, and Hivestone. The deck was friggin' geared to beat me. Even if I could get rid of my own Crystalline Sliver, He could plop down one of his, and keep me from not only getting rid of plague Sliver, but even getting rid of my own so I could stop taking 3-4 damage per turn, plus his 5/5 beat stick. Not only that, but he had his Meddling Mage Slivers all over my removal anyway. And all of these games were without sideboard . I'm not worried about Plague Sliver. I am a little more worried about Hivestone, though. It's an artifact, so it's completely splashable in any sideboard, and if Slivers gets big, this might show up everywhere.

[Maverick676]

Yah counterspell probably should have a slot in the main. I'm planning on playing the deck tonight so Ill through them in instead of chain of vapor.

This deck is geared to beat the tier 1, but I don't think it would have that much trouble against a deck like faerie stompy. Just from looking at the decklist, it looks like the deck likes to tap out alot, which would make daze really shine. Also needle has plenty of juicy targets. Although they can do first turn chalice for 1 (a little part of my soul dies everytime I have that played against me) which would really screw us over.

Also I'm sure this sounds like a noob question but what is AS?

EDIT:

Okay, I did get a little depressed, but here's why: Klaan was running Plague ('Juzam') Sliver, Crystalline Sliver, and Hivestone. The deck was friggin' geared to beat me.

LMAO, no one will run that much hate if they want to do well against anything else in the format.

[Pinder]

Angel Stompy. Zilla made it, if I'm not mistaken. It's in the Open Forum. Read about it. Could also stand for Angel Stax, though. That's in the Open too.


EDIT:

LMAO, no one will run that much hate if they want to do well against anything else in the format.

That's why I was so frustrated (not really depressed so much). Those games weren't even fair.

[Tosh]

I'm not worried about Plague Sliver. I am a little more worried about Hivestone, though. It's an artifact, so it's completely splashable in any sideboard, and if Slivers gets big, this might show up everywhere.

Hivestone is no problem if you SB Harmonic Slivers. Harmonic Sliver says that any sliver comming into play has to destroy an artifact or enchantment and if they have a hivestone out they're gonna have to produce an artifact or enchantment for each new sliver they play as cushion in order to keep them from killing their own Hivestone.

[Maverick676]

Ok thanks, I know what the deck is now. AS just wasn't registering in my head as Angel Stompy. That deck might be a little bit more difficult a matchup. Definetly not more than 50/50 if even that high.

Hivestone is no problem if you SB Harmonic Slivers. Harmonic Sliver says that any sliver comming into play has to destroy an artifact or enchantment and if they have a hivestone out they're gonna have to produce an artifact or enchantment for each new sliver they play as cushion in order to keep them from killing their own Hivestone.

EDIT: LOL, Does anyone else find it amusing that our SB tech will be tech against their SB tech.

[Volt]

Angel Stompy. Zilla made it, if I'm not mistaken. It's in the Open Forum.

This doesn't amount to much, but I played 3 games against Angel Stompy last weekend (piloted by Zilla himself). I won two. Once you get out Crystalline, his removal becomes moot. Once you get out Talon and Winged, there's not really much he can do to get his creatures through, even if they're equipped up. It was just 3 games, but I'm pretty sure this is a favorable matchup for us. Btw, one of the most important StP targets in that matchup is the Soltari Priest.

[Maverick676]

Ok thanks, I know what the deck is now. AS just wasn't registering in my head as Angel Stompy. That deck might be a little bit more difficult a matchup. Definetly not more than 50/50 if even that high.

Wow I couldn't have been more wrong about that match. I went and actually read the decklist, I thought AS was that mono-white deck running like 7+ global sweepers and smokestack. It's good to hear that we have actual test results against the deck, piloted by its creator no less.

[Xero]

I think this Time Spiral sliver could warrant a spot in the deck (or at least testing):
Sidewinder Sliver
W
All Slivers have Flanking
1/1
Could it take Plated or even Talon Sliver's spot?

[Volt]

I think this Time Spiral sliver could warrant a spot in the deck (or at least testing):
Sidewinder Sliver
W
All Slivers have Flanking
1/1
Could it take Plated or even Talon Sliver's spot?

It's been discussed. Flanking is pretty decent, and the price is right. However, we feel Plated Sliver's +0/+1 is ultimately more important to the deck. Against aggro, we are the control, so defense is better. Against control, flanking doesn't matter. Also, Plated gives us extra insurance vs. Pyroclasm, Massacre, Engineered Plague, and the like.

Talon Sliver isn't going anywhere. He's a friggin rock star in this deck. First Strike is HUGE.

[Maverick676]

The one mana flanking sliver definitely warrants some testing, I don't think he would take talon slivers spot as first strike + flanking is freakin sexy. But he might replace plated sliver, or maybe chain of vapor, I really like chain but with all the new slivers coming out it would be silly not to run a powerful sliver in it's spot.

[Volt]

I saw this in the G/W Aggro thread:

Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

Seems pretty goddam good to me. I think this is going to show up in a lot of sideboards, and probably deserves a spot in ours.

[Maverick676]

I saw this in the G/W Aggro thread:

Angel's Grace W
Instant
Split Second
You can't lose the game this turn, and your opponents can't win the game this turn. Until end of turn, damage that would reduce your life total to less then one reduces it to one instead.

Seems pretty goddam good to me. I think this is going to show up in a lot of sideboards, and probably deserves a spot in ours.

LOL THATS FREAKING AWESOME!!!!!!!!

My question is, will worship be better in our deck?

On a side note: Solidarity just died. Fortunately for us Iggy-Pop can completely ignore this card, so combo will still be around. Keeping Rifter out of the metagame still.

Before anyone asks why Iggy-Pop can ignore this I will elaborate: Tendrils will still put the opponent at 0 because its life loss, not damage. So the Iggy player will go off, playing a lethal tendrils and then pass the turn to win during upkeep due to the opponent being at 0.

EDIT: OMG just realized how supremely awesome this is on a stick.

[Phantom]

Children of Korlis w
Creature - Human Rebel Cleric C
Sacrifice Children of Korlis: You gain life equal to the life you've lost this turn.
1/1

IGGy just got hurt a bunch too.

As for Solidarity "dying", I think you're overstating things. All this means is that it dangerous for Solidarity to go off with lethal damage on the Stack and if you're holding one and there's a Gaea's blessing in your deck, then Solidarity is pretty much done (since you cast this with the Blessing trigger on the stack and they can't stroke you).

[Maverick676]

Yah phantoms right, this just means solidarity has to play differently. Although if lethal damage was on the stack you wouldn't need a blessing in the deck, All you have to do is play this so you can't lose the game that turn.

the 1/1 guy looks good on paper, but the fact is that Iggy can tutor up an answer before they play the tendrils, so this guy does absolutely zip against Iggy.

[Benie Bederios]

Your a funny guy mav. If you just want to hear how great the deck is don't put it on The Source. I've tested this deck quite alot, because on paper it looks good against Goblins. But in real testing goblins seems to power me out from time to time. Faerie Stompy is totally a bad matchup: Chalice for 1 turn 1 Sea Drake, Engineered Explosive. And Most of the time ***** will trade one for one every time, even if the opponent plays a sweeper and it resolves. And you play less counters than Thresh and if they manage to sweep you will be dead, where Thresh just plays his next creature. But if you just want to hear how great the deck is, here you go:

Great deck Mav, the best deck I've ever seen since the seperation of banned and restriction list. I bed most slivers will get banned because of this.

PS: Pinder and Volt, this isn't against to you, you are on the good way, but the point of the post was that you're not there yet.

EDIT: by the way "You haven't tested the deck" is the most lousy argument I ever heard.

[Maverick676]

Well Benie, It appears I owe you an apology. From your comments it sounded like you had just read the thread and posted some stupid comments that were not based on testing. That assumption was incorrect, and I apologize for being rude.

Global sweepers are a problem for this deck, thats why were testing with more counters in place of chain of vapor. If all your slivers get wrathed or something you can still recover assuming you kept a few slivers in your hand. Against decks that run global sweep there is really no reason to play every sliver as soon as you draw it, Crystaline + Muscle is a 4 turn clock.

As for the faerie stompy matchup, I haven't tested against it since here in washington it is almost never played, In fact I have yet to see someone actually play it at a tournament, or even in a casual game for that matter.

Yes goblins will just overpower you sometimes, but what deck can't goblins do that to? no deck beats another deck 100% of the time. But the fact is that our goblin matchup is somewhere between 65/35 and 70/30. Our thresh matchup is close to 50/50 or so, with SB it improves a little and our combo matchup is by no means unwinnable preboard, and quite favorable postboard.

I only questioned whether you had actually tested the deck because the comments you made seemed to be contradictary to what pinder, volt and myself had found with our rather extensive and still ongoing playtesting.

[xsockmonkeyx]

EDIT: by the way "You haven't tested the deck" is the most lousy argument I ever heard.

Meat Hooks is one of those decks that looks meh on paper. Its slivers and a bunch of soft counters which make it seem really underwhelming. You cant know what really does until you shuffle it up and start pounding on crap.