I've been thinking (I probably know the answer), why no dark confidants or Phyrexian Obliberator?
Instead of the Deathrite Shaman/Death's Shadow. But indeed, an extra one drop is handy that can control the graveyard, the BoB could give you more card advantage, but so does the draw 4 cards, instantly. Plus hitting Soul spikes hurt. So I get why you don't include BoB.
But Phryrexian Obliberator, could that be an option? Instead of the Death's Shadow? I know that DS has a lot of synergie with the rest of the deck, but since you run mostly basics, less scared of wastes and play dark ritual and deathrite shaman, you can easily put that beast down in turn 2 or 3. STP kills it (free from Abrupt Decay though) and if STP hits DS, at least you go back to 13 life. So I see value in both.
Just a thought that he might be able to see play here.
Originally Posted by Xod
Dark Confidant
You have basically answered the "why no Bob" question by yourself.
Let me further explain.
Bob is nice and all. Bob will be outstanding in some games, average to poor in some others.
You will (almost) never want to reveal a CMC 7 on him.
Bob was tested, weighted and finally dished.
The *sole* reason was because this deck wants to keep "control" of its life ressource at all cost and Bob's lifeloss is unpredictable.
Let's not add further consistency issues in a non (already) blue deck.
Phyrexian Obliterator
It was also tested.
1) On average, you will land him at about the same time as DS, but for 4 mana
2) On average, it gives less PV than DS when facing STP.decks
3) It doesn't fear decay
4) Its defending skills are "on par" (maybe a little better than DS and we could discuss that point for days) with DS
5) Its offensive skills are lower than DS.
6) Obliterator doesn't synergize with the whole deck's strategy.
The two last criteria are the most important.
The deck was built to swim between 1 and 6 life.
Let's imagine the following game state:
1) You are facing a tarmo 4/5 with a creature in play.
2) You are at 4 (bolt proof) and your opponent at 9.
Would rather have a DS or an Obliterator ?
a) With Obliterator, you will have to play the defensive role. Tarmo won't block but you won't be able to kill your opponent and you would die the very next turn.
b) With DS, you will be able to choose which role you wanna play. In this very case, tarmo is forced to block DS.
Anyway, please make your own tests and let's share some ideas !
Cheers,
Ralf.
Cold feet or was it that terrible ?
Last edited by Ralf; 12-14-2015 at 02:17 PM.
Sorry to keep you hanging so long. Been very bus.
It was that terrible
But I'm sure it wasn't the deck. Played a 4 round FNM legacy evening. I went 1-3... And that was because my first round was a bye...
Anyway, round 2 I started against R/G lands. Great, all my removal works... And he managed to find historische combo rather quickly, even with discard (no loam). And then I made one crucial mistake. Probably since I don't play lands often. I thinkbar the situation was the following:
He had a Dark Depths or stage out and 3 other lands (I will never make the same mistake) and he had one card in hand. I had HTT, 2 dismembers, soulspike, gatekeeper and something else. I was on 8 life. I Played the HTT to get that one card out of his hand (stupid) because he crop rotated into his missing piece and created lage on EOT. Next turn he Attacks and I told him, I can survive this. Hé looked funny at me. But I must say, I had 2 deathrites out and 6 lands (2 used for HTT). Did I mentioned that I got manaflooded all night? Anyway, with the two deathrites I could hardcast the two dismembers and soulspike him to be on 2 lives . But there was my mistake. I've I hadn't cast HTT, I could had pitched it and the something else in my hand to soulspike and next turn cast gatekeeper to make him sacrifice lage. But since I didnt want to give Away the gatekeeper and the soulspike, I scooped. And I checked the top card, no gatekeeper. Second game hé found his combo rather quickly and I didnt find a pithing needle or sacrifice outlet with soulspike. Should have mulled for an answer I think.
I continue the rest later, because I'm writing this on the bus on my Phone because there I have some time
Here is the rest:
Third round was against BUG Delver, there I had the most fun all evening. I enjoyed a full game (and a half). I can't remember all the details clearly, but I mulled a onelander without shaman, to something like this. Thoughtseize, a remove piece, 2 swamps and two fetches. I thought, I'm not going to 5 against BUG and with the two fetches and scry I will probably see enough business spells (or so I thought).
Scry, D4 on top. With 4 lands, that's definitly not bad. Turn 3 when I played it, I think I drew 2 lands and 2 other spells. In the meantime after fetching and such I drew another land. I think I ended the game where I casted 2 or 3 D4's and I had 9 or 10 lands in play and 4 or 5 fetches in my graveyard.
2nd game was amazing, the deck finally worked, I think I killed/discarded almost every threat in his deck. Very exciting and fun game, my opponent also enjoyed it very much, even after I killed 2 or three of his liliana's :-) Won on Death's Shadow and gatekeeper beats.
Game 3, again I started with a not so good hand, again 3 or 4 lands, but with dark ritual and a liliana. I thought, why not, again with fetches, I should draw some threats. I kept it, and went liliana on turn 1 :-). I think I discarded one and killed a delver and a true-name and then surgical extrated the true-name. But then I kept drawing lands, one after another until I hit a D4, I think I casted 1 or 2 of those and found mostly land.
Round 4, I played against cloud post (yeeeey, again a game where my abrupt decays and dismembers will do a lot, at least my decays will do something more and I double dismembered his PrimeTime at some point) can't remember much, except that I lost 2-0 and saw a lot of lands (on both sides of the table :-))
Didn't find sac effects or needles, and the thing that almost tilted me (somebody else was watching my hand) was a D4 with already 7 lands in play, was a draw of 4 lands...
It just wasn't my evening. But I'm convinced that this deck will work and I did a couple of play mistakes, but getting flooded that whole evening was not so amusing. At least I saw the deck in action against BUG.
I will definitly will play it another time, but I like to play a lot of different decks and I want to play my Nic Fit deck a bit more often. (and I also have a sylvan plug, B/W Helmline and some other shenanigans ready to play) On a side note, the Sunday after, I played the Cure at a tournament with 45 people (only played it once before) and I almost got into the top 8, but was kept out against the same R/G land player... Still 3 wins, a draw and 2 losses with a funky deck is fun :-)
Wow.
Getting flooded all night with only 19 lands is very very awkward to say the least.
At least you finally get to play the deck.
Keep practising it with your friend as a fun deck until you are willing to give it another shot at a FNM !
Hey everybody,
I played this list today at South Florida Magic's weekly legacy event.
It is basically Ralfs list from a page back
Mana
7 Swamp
3 Bloodstained mire
3 Polluted Delta
3 Marsh Flat
3 Bayou
3 Dark ritual
Kill conditions
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
1 Geralfs Messenger
4 Deathrite shaman
3 Death's shadow
1 Empty the Pits
Removal
4 Abrupt decay
4 Soul Spike
3 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Disruption
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
Draw spells
4 Infernal Contract
2 Cruel Bargain
Sideboard
3 Surgical extraction
1 Golgari charm
2 Pithing needle
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spinning darkness
2x Geralfs Messenger
2 Engineered plague
1 Null Rod
1 Grafdigger's cage
Things did not go so well. It needs some tweaking.
Round 1 vs Lands (You can watch it on stream here)
This was terrible matchup, there are SO many dead draws here. Game 1 was over very fast due to a quick combo, game 2 i won in what felt like an eternity, game 3 I lost to the 20/20. A serious sideboard change needs to be made to combat a lands/loam deck.
0-1
Round 2 vs Tezzerator
A resolved chalice on 1 crushed me game 1. Game 2 I landed a turn one thought seize and hymn buying me time.... and I drew nothing useful. Eventually I died to 5/5 artifacts with force of will crushing my soul (soul spike).
0-2
Round 3 vs DnT
What I thought would have been a very favorable matchup, I got hosed. Too many creatures negate the gatekeeper. A mom really hurts my decays and being taxed/ported out sucks.
0-3 drop
I feel like this is a for fun deck and not very competitive at all, there are so many vulnerabilities with this deck. I felt like having wastelands would have really helped many matchups but wastelands would be terrible in this deck.
Some serious changes need to be made here.
Hey, thanks for showing interest to the deck.
Too bad if it didn't end up well.
Still, I can assure you the deck has been heavily tested.
Few comments:
1) 4 Gatekeeper are a must. Shaving 1 for 1 messenger is not something I would recommend. Even if my friend plays a different list than mine, it does not mean you should do it (and he has likely 200 games with it).
2) 2nd pithing needle in the sideboard would have helped you more than messenger in the Board (against your MU) like the one of Sylvan Library.
3) Netdecking is nice and all but be sure to play the suggested list or at least play test a bit before showing up to a tournament. You cannot expect to do great with a rogue deck like this one without proper preparation.
4) Don't blame the deck for your poor results. It happens.
Your MUs were not very easy and this deck has no free wins.
Well, take all this with a grain of salt.
Fix your list, train harder and let's discuss afterwards and remember shit happens...
1. Did you watch the match? The messenger saved the game! How do you deal with an elf/DnT list when they have many creatures on the board. The kicked gatekeeper doesnt do much there.
2. Yes for sure.
3. Yes, I agree but my expectation was to have fun and I did. Which is also why I posted here because I am looking to get better with it. I needed a place to start and I liked your list and gave it a shot.
4. Im not blaming the deck at all, I just want to know how i can better prepare for a loam heavy meta. The lands matchup is almost unwinnable especailly without an instant speed edict.
Thanks for the reply though.
The only thing that i was the most disappointed about was that i never got to play an empty the pits :( That is such an excellent out that I never got to draw. Man, that would have been fun
->1) I didn't watch the game because I was in the train. Did you use the board strat I have provided one page back ?
D&T is an uphill battle:
1) You lose to an unanswered MoR T1 (involving a SFM @ some point)
2) You lose to Batterskull / Mirran crusader
3) You lose to mana denial
4) You win because you have a perfect curve + infinite removal (T1, T2, T3, Draw 4, rince and repeat)
5) You win because he floods and his mana denial strat doesn't work as good on you as on other decks.
6) You win EOT making 12 + zombie tokens
Post side, you have access to even more removals (liliana, Spinning and Golgari charm) + 2 Engineered plague (naming "human") and 1 sylvan library which shines against midrange decks.
->3) If you really want to improve Lands' MU, try:
- The second needle in the side (Obviously needle should name thespian's stage)
- Leyline of the void is a very good card as well.
I truly believe that Lands is not the most difficult MU and we have the tools to fight back (G2 and G3, obviously G1 we have a lot of dead cards):
- DRS is a pain for them (even with PF)
- Surgical and Pithing are very good.
But well, Lands is a huge PAIN for any fair deck.
The board strategy has to be worked out (to be honest I barely face Lands here so I do not have any board strat to offer right now. Let me think about it.)
Just a quick note: if he's got Stages out copying something else (like Port), you have to name the copied card to shut them off.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
if death and taxes is feeling too difficult, feel free to play some massacres or dread of night.
-rob
From the tests we have run, the sideboard is already as nasty as it gets against D&T. You can tweak the sideboard as much as you want to cope with a local meta, just be aware that the sideboard I proposed is against an unknown meta.
The only real issue I could see against D&T is the "clock"...So just remember playing as fast as you can (and also ask your oppo to keep up a good speed)
There are quite a few good cards for Black that I don't see in anyone's posts. I realize Hatred is not everyone's cup of tea but I have learned to play the card and played correctly it can put a lot of pressure on your opponent to at any moment to just kill them. This is my current build.
Suicide Black/Hatred
6 Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Bloodsoaked Champion
4 Mesmeric Fiend
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Bloodghast
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Dark Ritual
3 Hatred
// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Withered Wretch
SB: 4 Cursed Scroll
SB: 3 Liliana of the Veil
SB: 2 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 2 Forsaken Wastes
Lands
Dark Depths, Thespian's Stage, Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and Wasteland are all awesome lands. For the combo with Hexmage and Stage you can kill them on turn 3. How good is that? And they have to board stuff in to deal with it or main deck cards which handle at 20/20 Avatar. I realize Depths/Stage are expensive cards but there is no reason not to run them.
Dark Ritual – have heard talk about not running ritual. That’s bad in my opinion.
Creatures
Deathrite Shaman should be in almost every black deck. This card is not one most opponents can afford to leave on the table. Non-targeted life loss and graveyard destruction. And mana if you want it. How good is that? The mana aspect alone speeds up Suicide and is reason alone enough to run them.
Vampire Hexmage is possibly the best creature currently that black has now. It’s lethal combination with Dark Depths make it a must play. The first strike aspect is not bad as well. As a bonus it kills planeswalkers and removes counters from Chalice of the Void and other things. No one can afford to let this stay on the table long.
Hypnotic Specter is still a must counter. If they can’t it quickly becomes card advantage knocking out key cards. They can’t allow it to resolve. It is well worth the 3 mana.
Bloodsoaked Champion is probably the best one drop for now. It’s more or less immune to Chalice of the Void. It can attack die and come back with it’s ability. How good is that? It’s not stellar but it is a solid one drop if you want them. Ignores Counterbalance for the most part.
Disowned Ancestor may be worth considering. It has 4 toughness in a one drop and the counters you put on are permanent. How good is that?
Nantuko Shade is still amazing. And a lot of decks won’t allow this to resolve either as the damage they do is quick and effective. For two mana, you will be hard pressed to find a better two drop. Not running them at the moment but may change.
Geralf’s Messenger. Blacks 3 drops creatures are a bit weak. This guy shines in a lot of ways as he is immune to most decks damage removal. You can use him with Cabal Therapy. I like the life loss and they are immune to Liliana.
Bloodghast’s haste ability and Landfall make it an okay 2 drop. I like them because they get around Counterbalance which is annoying.
Mesmeric Fiend is bad but I like it in this deck for Hatred kill. If I can find something better that messes with my opponent’s hand as a creature I will run it. Also this is mostly vs. other nasty combo decks like mine. May drop this for Cabal Therapy. The reason I don’t run Therapy main is most times people sideboard Leyline of the Void against me making therapy kind of useless. You almost don’t need them at all.
Hatred is a style point really. I like them because they make games about to lose, games I could win. Umezawa’s Jitte works well in this slot too but can be stopped by Pithing Needle which many board in. That's my two cents.
Last edited by greendragon; 12-16-2015 at 04:06 PM.
Also working on this but I would not call it suicide. Concept is the similar. The two main decks you want graveyard hate for are Dredge and Land decks. Nic Fit and other decks I bring in 4 Forsaken Wastes. So if they get Griselbrand they can't gain life. Versus Lands Forsaken Wastes stops punishing fire from recycling and against Dredge you sacrifice Hexmage at the end of their draw step to get rid of their Bridge From Below. After that, they have to get rid of it. And if they target it with Abrupt Decay or anything they lose 5 life. Withering Wisps gets rid of tokens and the like and remember Dark Depths is Snow-covered.
Icy Depths
// Main:
5 Snow-Covered Swamp
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Hypnotic Specter
4 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Phyrexian Arena
4 Dark Ritual
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Withering Wisps
// Sideboard:
SB: 4 Cursed Scroll
SB: 4 Massacre
SB: 4 Forsaken Wastes
SB: 3 Liliana of the Veil
Could you maybe fit Juzam Djinn or Phyrexian Scuta in here?
Also, I'd try out Nantuko Shade - 2/1 that can get pumped later in the game, making Dark Rituals into Giant Growths.
Consider Lake of the Dead for early ramp too.
Honestly, I feel like your deck is like 3 different Mono Black concepts, but unfortunately they don't really synergize that well together: On one hand you're trying to Ritual out a Hippie and go aggro with jitte like some Sui deck, the other hand you're trying to drop an Arena/DRS/Pestillence adding more of control style, but then you sneak in Urborg/Depths/Hexmage/Stage like "sure... why the fuck not" with absolutely no tutors or Thoughtseize/Duress to protect it.
The problem is... lets say you're facing a deck that you really just need to go aggro and kill them before they kill you... *draw hand* well SHI* you're out of luck 'cause you drew an Urborg, Thesbian Stage, Swamp, DRS, Ritual, Gatekeeper, & Withering Wisps -- GL with that one! lol And vice-a-versa, you see my point? You're trying to add all these different elements but you have no control how they come up, ya know.
It would make sense using Withering Wisps in a MBC deck to clear the board, and have Bloodghasts or something as a finisher. Or if you want to go the MBC route with Dark Depths and Arena for draw, definitely throw in some tutors like Beseech the Queen to get your pieces and win as well. All in all, you're trying to do both and MAYBE all the stars line up one game: you ritual out a Hyppie, opponent has no counter or removal, you follow up with Hymn, they drop a bunch of weenies, you get that perfect follow up and drop Withering Wisps and laugh at him, etc. But problem is majority of the time you're gonna' lose to yourself by having a less structured deck. For instance, you have no removal & no Duress/Thoughtseize's so even as an aggro your suboptimal at that; and with Depths you lack the tutors like I mentioned, so you're suboptimal and pulling that off as well.
The logic of going... "I'm going to go Painter/Grindstone... but if that doesn't work I've also got Depths/Thesbian stage...and I'll throw in brainstorm/Delver/Daze 'cause that can sometimes just run away with the victory. That's the plan, at least one of them will work" doesn't work XD
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Last night I played Ralf's list verbatim.
4 rounds cut to top 8
Round 1 vs Death and Taxes
Last time I played vs DnT it was disgustingly bad, today everything went in my favor. Game His vial met my abrupt decays, I had two deaths shadows in hand that I sandbagged for a while letting him take my life low. I go Dark Ritual into cruel bargain, dark ritual, malestrom pulse the batter skull, hymn, deaths shadow X 2 with them at 9/9 and scoops. Game 2 he opens with a dryad arbor. 1 gatekeepers, 2 swamp, bayou, dark ritual, hymn, lilli. are in my hand. He also mulled down to 6. I draw a dark ritual, i open with a bayou ->Ritual -> kicked gatekeeper. He sacks his dryad, he then decides to wasteland a bayou. I draw a dark ritual. Swamp, ritual, lilli discard go. next turn I hymn him and the saltyness begins. easy 2-0 I sideboarded out a 2 souls spikes, 1 thoughtseize, 1 cruel bargain, and brought in 2 lilli's and 2 needles.
Round 2 vs Infect
I dont remember much from this. Game one i won with a much confused look on my opponents face after cruel bargaining twice in a turn, swinging with a 11/11 death shadow and Soul spiking him for the win. I lost the next 2 games though. Each game came down to one turn and the ability of having blue to cantrip into the pump spells is huge. The only removal i drew was abrupt decays, and those are fine except when facing down Inkmoths. Game 3 ended with him playing a second Inkmoth the turn before I could ultimate lilli. I need to rethink my SB plans for infect.
Round 3 vs elves
This is a scary matchup because elves builds up a mass very fast, can avoid gatekeeper sacs, and can combo off out of thin air. Tanking your life total makes a craterhoof activation much easier for them to pull off with less creatures on board. I took one game an lost 2 in the typical way you lose to elves. Any advice here.
Round 4 vs B/W mentor?
Game one I hit him hard with discard. Gatekeepers helped him having to sac off mentors and Bobs. A turn with a large death's shadow and soul spike activation made this one quick. Game 2 he sideboards in lingering soles. I hit him hard with a hymn making him discard two mentors. I have a malestrom pulse in hand and let him play many souls into it. I pulsed them and then he scooped with a 12/12 deaths shadow and 2 gatekeepers on my side. Then the saltyness begins.
2-2 overall and I feel like I could have beaten infect.
Takeaways
1. I got more familiarized with the deck. Much better experience than last time.
2. Nothing is truer than there are no free wins with this deck. There are no oops i win moments.
3. People get mad/bitter when they lose to a "deck that isnt even real"
I do have a question though, what is the plan for playing against a burn deck?
Hello James,
Glad you have had some success !
Did you use the sideboard plan I have posted a page ago (mainly for elves and infect) ?
If you did, I would like your inputs (even if not !).
We have tested Elves quite a bit and the MU is around 45/55 postboard (with the suggested sideboard).
Infect was not tested a lot since none of my friends play it regularly.
I played 15 games preboard against Burn tonight but my opponent was not maindecking searing blaze.
I didn't lose a single one.
I was really afraid of this MU but as long as you play tight you must be able to take G1.
Here are a few tips:
- do not play any draw 4 before you reach <=4 life.
- any Soul spike you draw is almost GG. Watch out to always target the player if not he can kill his own creature to prevent you from gaining any life (Truth is I drew 1 Soul spike in each 15 games...without it you are most likely dead) .
- Always go for his biggest spells with TS (fireblast)
- Play your death's shadow when you are <= 9 life.
I'll update my sideboard tables in the days to come to provide some ideas against burn for G2 & G3.
Thanks for your report !
Keep rocking
Agree. Have found this list to be lacking. However I do think the Depths/Hexmage/Stage has some merit as even though you have no real way to tutor for them, it really doesn't serve a black deck not to run those cards. Seeing as it's a pretty easy thing to do. Right now I'm working on a more aggressive combo build similar to hatred but with depths. Originally I had Thoughtseize in the above list which worked much better. But honestly I think Nighthawl and Gatekeeper are subpar cards at best. So I think 2 ways to win is fine.
I am not a fan of 3cc cards as legacy is so fast right now I don't think we can afford to run them unless they are stellar or we have no other options. Beseech is not really going to cut in a deck like this. Actually looking more at Diabolic Intent if anything. That's the best tutor right now.
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