The new Kozilek looks amazing, because he is another card which can be put in of Show and Tell and has an immediate effect. He promotes to playing the full 4 SnT, which makes the deck stronger in general (increased chance for Titan+SnT).
I think Rock Lee's UG shell is the strongest version of the deck. Ugw seems to greedy in regard to its mana base. More importantly it is also a misconception to add specialized anti creature cards to a deck, which is supposed to be strong against fair decks in the first place. UG is supposed to handle fair matchups without a third color and struggle against nonfair decks g1. The meta argument is valid, but I think that we can fine tune the UG build for a general meta. The deck looks well build except ~6 slots we have to toy with.
@Mech: Stifle/Trickbind + Crop should be enough to handle "normal" Wasteland scenarios. Both are stronger than Needle in general, but Needle shines against a) Plainswalker b) Wasteland recursion. I consider a build with 3 Stifle / Trickbind, 3 Crop and 1 Needle + 2 Trinket Mages to fetch it. Having like 7 anti Wasteland cards looks like a good number.
BBB
Excellent input, i agree completely.Originally Posted by deadlock
Are you running stifles in place of trickbind? In which case you sometimes opt to stifle a fetch (on the play) instead of saving it for a wasteland?
Yes. I was on the fence in the Omnitell meta, as resolving Trickbind was a matter of winning or losing as Rock Lee correctly put it, but since then I gravitate towards Stifle. Protecting our mana from turn 1 on is huge and I actually enjoy to let Stifle get FoW'd quite a bit. Another consideration is your general mana curve. Currently I am testing Remand in the flexible slot, so another cmc2 would be too much. It all depends. Same with your scenario. Just today I stifled a Fetch, which got FoW'd. I was holding a Crop Rotation against their Waste in this case. I think you have to just play more games and you will see for yourself. Besides specific scenarios it is important to understand that this deck moves towards a winning position 'automatically' as long as you develop your manabase in general, as a lot of topdecks become lethal with sufficient amounts of mana. E.g. winning of an Expedition Map against a lethal board.Are you running stifles in place of trickbind? In which case you sometimes opt to stifle a fetch (on the play) instead of saving it for a wasteland?
BBB
What do people think about quarantine field? Too mana intensive? The big problem I see, even for G/w, is the double white. That card could have been so good.
For non-blue players, what about bind in the SB? It doesn't hit storm trigger, but does hit wasteland, etc. worth testing at all?
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Another good training card is Tsabo's Web. That card was designed to hose over Rishidian port, Maze, Thespian stage. (Also wastelands if your opponent taps them for mana.) I've played Teffer's response against D&T when it was a larger than normal portion of my metagame and I got people good!
I feel like Terminus is cool and cheap removal - I just haven't tested it enough in this build since you are counter productive w/ it if you play Dryad Arbor of GSZ for 1 (Vet) and the mana seems kind of weird ... Terminus just feels a little too situation for this build since you don't have Brainstorm / Jace. as for the SB I like Tax effects vs Storm I see the Cannonist which is good I might try that too :D [Melira was bad when i tested it] Chasm > Dawnstrider is how I beat infect most of the time
S&T 4 mainboard, with 1 kozilek, 1 emrakul, 4 titans, 2 emperion as creatures. S&T is the easiest way to win, I really feel the difference with it (I used to play the GW version). Sometimes on g2 I remove 1 S&T, it depends on the opponent: now the omnitell is gone the meta has less fear of S&T, but this card is heavily used by reanimator, sneack&show, so generally a player has some response to it. Against white decks I remove for sure 1 S&T, containement priest is very annoying.
3 S&T is good also. It depends, if you wanna use Fow, how many creatures you have in your deck, how is your meta...
On the new Kozilek: nice, but I'm not 100% sure that it deserves a slot. I prefer the drawing ability of the old one and of course annihilator is top. About the "counterbalance" ability.....yeah, nice, good maybe with sensei into play, but I don't like the discarding effect. And I don't think we can have kozilek 2 on early game to control the match, unless we are very lucky and we S&T it soon. Is it worth to counter 0/1 cmc after 5th round?
If any build can use him, it's UG with S&T. And countering 0/1 stuff in the later game isn't useless.
0 CMC:
Ancestral Visions
1 CMC:
Stifle
StP
Top (for Mentor chains)
EE on 1
Any cantrip (good when they're in topdeck mode)
Crop Rotation (in Lands/Depths)
I don't know if he's worth a slot, but he probably at least merits testing if you have access to S&T.
Sadly, he's not good enough in mono-G. If we have the 10 mana to hardcast him against combo before they go off, Newlamog is usually just better. And old Koz's draw trigger is better in every other matchup, especially with Karakas.
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Funny enough I actually like the new Kozilek for GW or mono G more than I like it for UG. UG already has access to things like Flusterstorm and Force for the combo match up whereas Mono G can ramp quicker and hard cast this. New Kozilek actually gives G based Turbo decks the ability to combat combo more reactively than just relying on tax and 3sphere effects.
^
I totally agree
Top 8'd the charity event run by Matt Neiwola Link Here.
I threw away both game 2 and Game 3 against splinter twin that I 2-0'd easily in the swiss. Such a terrible letdown by my sloppy play. The deck felt extremely strong.
// Lands
1 [10E] Island (3)
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
3 [A] Tropical Island
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [M15] Forest (3)
1 [R] Tundra
1 [R] Savannah
1 [ZEN] Plains (6)
3 [ON] Windswept Heath
// Creatures
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [SOM] Trinket Mage
1 [BFZ] Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
// Spells
4 [US] Show and Tell
4 [MM] Brainstorm
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [AVR] Terminus
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 [FNM] Krosan Grip
SB: 2 [C13] Bane of Progress
SB: 3 [R] Swords to Plowshares
SB: 3 [TSP] Trickbind
My Swiss matchups were Splinter Twin (2-0 Win), Cloudpost Staxx (2-0 Win), Elves (2-1 Win), Miracles (1-1 Unintentional draw [would've won with 1 more turn and would've called judge on slow play in a bigger event]), Infect (1-1 Intentional draw after game 2 I offered the draw for 2nd place seeding and they accepted)
I agree that it does more for G/w than for UG but still don't think it's good enough. I need the combo answer to be active on or before turn 3 to reliably address storm, and for new Kozilek this requires a sequence of T1 Cloudpost, T2 Cloudpost-Candelabra, T3 Locus-Kozilek. This assumes that Candelabra and any necessary Crop Rotations are not discarded or countered. Note also that Expedition Map is too slow in this sequence. And on top of this, Kozilek's draws need to produce cards of the right CMCs in the right quantity which is not guaranteed. Gitaxian Probe allows them to see what you can counter and discard spells still work. I suppose discarding lands to counter Petals and LED could be sufficient, though this requires the opponent to not know about Kozilek via discard/probes.
In contrast, sphere effects don't require much luck or setup to be active by turn 3 (and can often be cast sooner), are guaranteed to work, and cannot be overwhelmed by a flurry of spells. Indeed, Leyline+Sphere has made the previously tough storm matchup feel easy postboard.
There's something to be said for a combo answer that protects itself against Chain of Vapor (usually), can't be Abrupt Decayed, and threatens to win on its own. It seems too hard to consistently ramp into in time, however, and even then isn't guaranteed to do enough of what you need. Also I'm wary of cutting another reshuffle effect - I like my Eldrazi to recycle themselves rather than wait to be Deathrited away.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
Kozilek vs storm in GW post. Personally I run
Land/0 Drops = 27 - Naturally they won't all be available due to land to cast kozilek.
1 Drops = 16
2 Drops = 4
I definitely hear you. My point was that new Kozilek was better for mono G because as of now we have sphere effects and possibly Leyline to combat them and with our mana ramp it is easier for us to hard cast over the UG version, basically it gives us something to do in between casting Kozilek and killing them whereas UG has flusterstorm and force to combat them already so running old kozilek is probably just better for the fact that they can clear the board of land, making it harder for storm to combo while force and flusterstorm hold the fort before Kozilek comes down.
Regarding New Kozilek. It will obviously be an auto-in. I have always wanted a fattie that was colorless but able to be showed in against combo and castable against tempo. Essentially requires an on-cast ability and a strong anti-combo static ability. Even if the unknown mana symbols end up requiring wastes to tap, I will just run one and fix my way into casting.
U/G offers excellent 0,1, 3's to discard as well, all the cmcs you care about hitting against all combo.
Hei Guys
Yesterday was the unofficial Swiss Legacy Championship. 72 Player!!! Very cool for Switzerland:) (7 Rounds)
I played of Course 12 Post Mono Green because we have less Combo Decks like Storm there. A lot Midrange and Delver Decks;)
So i started with a bye because the Last time i top 8 in the qualifier with Storm.;)
Played the Same List like last time, with just a little Change in the SB. I take out the MB Traps for 2 Dismember.
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Crop Rotation
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Expedition Map
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Vesuva
1 Karakas
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
3 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 All Is Dust
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Maze of Ith
6 Forest
4 Ancient Stirrings
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
2 Exploration
SB: 4 Sphere of Resistance
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Obstinate Baloth
SB: 1 Oblivion Stone
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Dismember
Round 1: Bye
Round 2: U/G Infect 2:0
G1:He going of T3 for the Kill i had 2 lands on the field sac both for crop into chasm then i drawed into the Posts and i won :)
G2: Basically the Same but it takes a little bit more time. He played very bad and forget to pay tabernacle;) that's why i love this card.
Then i ramp me into Kozilek and a bunch of cards and i won after that.
Round 3:Shardless Agent 2:1
G1: he really won G1 with 2 Tarmogoyfs and a nice Hymn with flow backup.
G2: All is Dust wins. Played around he's Lili with basiloth
G3: Basiloth is the Damn Card against this Deck. I played around everything then at 1 Point i had just a basiloth on the field but drawer into eye with 8 mana open into Kozilek;)
Round 4: Burg Delver 0:2
G1: I missplayed sadly with Map into Dephts but he had a too fast clock to win.. Should take Cloudpost and make 10 mana for a Ugin next Turn..Really really bad:(
G2: I had a Forest in hand with 2 Stirrings and top so i kp it. I just finding a other Post the whole Game and in the late Game just a Forest. So he beaten me really bad..
Don't be too greedy in this Match up!!!
Round 5: Foodchain Griffin 2:0
G1: First i was thinking he's on Shardless BUG..But he just played some Creatures and a griffin and well i won with Emrakul haha
G2: Basically the same
So at this Point my Standings was now 4:1 and i have just to win 1 More match for top 8 (7 Rounds)
But now the Struggle get started. I was the only 12 Post Player there and i played against the only UR Delver Player there with Price of Progress 4off+ Wasteland... Good Choice for him of course.
He played not that well but yeah i think Counter+a Fast Clock and Wasteland are a harder Match up for us. More than any Other Delver Deck i think.
Round 6: UR Delver 1:2..
G1: He does nothing for two Turn and i ramp me higher and next turn i could play ulamog but then he surprised me with a Wasteland and played delver then he good me in 3 Turns lol
G2: It was really Close too playground he's Price but a fast emrakul wins there. Candelabras are very important in a Match up like this;)
G3: Really Close but at some Point i had 4 Non Basic+Eye in Play and exploration out and Ulamog and Chasm in hand.. He had 1 Wasteland out 1 Volcanic and 1 island with a delver. So i misplayed here i think.
I played vesuva and should get some mana in pool for Chasm then play ulamog. I know he had a Daze in hand. I can just make 8 mana... So i forget to play chasm and played ulamog he just rsp to him with a price..so i lost...
The play with chasm would here be correct, after that i can exile him delver and the red land...Then he can Waste me or top deck a source for price so it was a little bit random.. Don't know if i can win here.. After rethinking i would probably win it..:) Lesson for life.
Round 7: Tin Fins... I think it's a better Match up than UR Delver 2:0
G1: Well G1 is hard to win but if we had a crop and forest or a needle we win. Here i played to fast. I played t1 exploration into land into needle and naming waste witch is wrong. Normally here it isn't important for naming waste. I should wait a turn. So then he discard himself a griselbrand and i don't find any Crop rotation or the 1off bog haha
G2: Mull to 6 with a 2 cloudpost and a needle. So i kp it and played a land. He goes off T1 haha
So i lost again because of some little but important mistakes.
4-1 to 4-3 is really bad but happens:P We can not always win;)
I will test the list more and better for the Nebraska War 3.0.
Ask me for question thanks:)
Greets dingo
I did some calculations and with this CMC distribution a T3 cast Kozilek gives you the following expected quantities of cards in hand for each CMC:
0: 3.05
1: 1.91
2: 0.51
So it's safe to say that LEDs will not resolve, and you can often (but not always) counter two one-drops. Infernal Tutors will probably still resolve. These numbers assume the natural 2x-Cloudpost+locus+Candelabra sequence I mentioned earlier, but if Crop Rotations and/or fetches are involved they all change by less than 0.2. Coincidentally, these 0- and 1-drop numbers are the same as in Rock Lee's most recent U/G list (assuming no Surgicals postboard - I'm actually curious whether these come in against storm or not). Rock has 7 3-drops which gives an expected 0.89 of them in hand post-Kozilek. Since Kozilek always draws you to seven cards these numbers are independent of play/draw or mulligans.
The picture worsens if Show and Tell is the plan. With M mulligans and D draw steps (i.e., 2 on the play and 3 on the draw since S&T is possible on turn 3 at the earliest) you have 7-M+D cards of which 3 must be lands, one S&T, and one Kozilek. So you have 2-M+D cards in hand after S&T if you do absolutely nothing on the first two turns and are not hit with discard. Under those conditions and assuming no mulligans, you have 4 or 5 cards in hand on the play and draw respectively. The expected numbers in this case are:
cc | Play | Draw
0: 1.75, 2.18 (Three lands are already used)
1: 1.16, 1.45 (Candelabra isn't required so there are more 1-drops to discard)
3: 0.44, 0.55 (one S&T is already used to put Kozilek in play so only 6 3-drops are available, assuming Trinket Mages stay in)
Of course brainstorm allows you to improve the situation somewhat; mulligans, discard, and casting spells on turns 0-2 all worsen it.
a.k.a. Eddy Viscosity
First off, Kudos to you for expanding on this deck. I have always felt it had great potential. Your builds always change much pretty dramatically, like this one. It almost feels like you expand and cover what meta your going into. Any way to elaborate on your builds and how you come to terms with specific cards? 4 Surgical extractions and 4 terminus is definitely not an interesting route.
Also I have been running Relic of Progenitus since I saw you had a build for it and man it's been working nicely. Meta around my parts is full of Goyfs and Aggro Loam is picking up since omnitell was shut down a bit.
I never thought I would say it, but I miss the Dig through Time meta, where the only combo deck was Omni. We could dedicate 7 maindeck cards to omni specifically and over 3/4 of our sb. Now there is Storm, Infect, Sneaky Show, along with limping Omni and others. We can no longer afford to be greedy with our hate.
Blanket sweepers and turn 1 plays are integral, Hence Terminus and Surgical opening up sideboard and maindeck options.
I don’t know if I should waste space on this forum by posting this, but fuck it – live and learn. I played horribly this Sunday. Made two HUGE (and obvious) mistakes that cost me 2 matches, not to mention other mistakes (confused plays). Despite of this the deck felt like it (in the right hands) could defeat all the match-ups I got. This deck is great, but does require experience… hopefully next time I can manage to not make obvious mistakes that cost me top 8 this time.
Example: I tapped out in my main to activate eye (don’t know why I did that…) letting the lands player to make a marit lage token in my end step, killing me with 2 repeals in my hand – funny right? I would have won game 2 easily, but you know – slow play… lands Jesus that’s one slow deck, simply boring (couldn't even finish game 2 and i was playing reasonably fast, if not fast). Don't know why anyone would play it...
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