[Primer] R/G Lands

[Dice_Box]

Enchantress, Aluren... Not sure what else you would want to prioritise this card for.

[Nikolai004]

Enchantress, Aluren... Not sure what else you would want to prioritise this card for.

Mono Red Sneak Attack it could be ok with, but usually they only need one activation or can do enough at instant speed that they can draw with griselbrand and play an emmy before it's destroyed. Other than that, perhaps Aluren, the random Reanimate dead, if reanimator starts packing those more often and Retreat to Coralhelm if that's actually a thing.

The card would be far more useful if it hit both artifacts and enchanments.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Mono Red Sneak Attack it could be ok with, but usually they only need one activation or can do enough at instant speed that they can draw with griselbrand and play an emmy before it's destroyed. Other than that, perhaps Aluren, the random Reanimate dead, if reanimator starts packing those more often and Retreat to Coralhelm if that's actually a thing.

The card would be far more useful if it hit both artifacts and enchanments.

Hnnnng I wish it hit artifacts

[j2los]

Question for the forum:

I'm a new lands player, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question, but I can't help but wonder: Why aren't 1-2 (of 2-3) copies of Tranquil Thicket in the sb and Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog in the main? I know some people put a Depths copy for one of the two, but why not the thickets instead? My logic is as follows: Karakas and Bog help you against a number of matches that can be sort of unfavored (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Storm) or even (Lands) game 1.

But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D). Now don't get me wrong, I love some utility, so I would personally keep one in the maindeck. But why not put the extra copies in the SB where you will bring them in against graveyard hate? Why not have maindeck answers to those archetypes that can give us early trouble in game 1?

Again, I am a new player, so forgive me if there is some glaring reason this is a horrible idea. I'd love to hear the opinions of some lands vets.

[Cfetchcaviar]

Dice, and Nik


I wouldn't bring it in against aluren. Our mana denial game plan and punishing fire are stronger than them getting to 4 mana to drop the enchantment. I would bring in just 4 grips for that match-up.

Mono red sneak attack is not a deck i plan on playing against. Even if i did, i probably lose to a turn 1-2 fatty anyway or their main board bloodmoon.

Fracture is almost exclusive for miracles, which i feel is a swingy match-up dependent on me having a quick witch loop, or ways to answer their prison pieces. Too often i am finding i dont have a grip when i need it. Rip, bloodmoon, counterbalance. . . I want answers to them, i dont want to sit with my thumb up my ass waiting for gamble or grip. I hate losing to miracles. ugh i dont lose to the artifact hate, i lose to enchantment hate and well placed counter magic. Just try before you nay say me off the board for experimenting.

SB
4 grip
4 sphere
2chalice
2 boil
aura fracture
pithing needle
decimate

[Chatto]

Question for the forum:

I'm a new lands player, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question, but I can't help but wonder: Why aren't 1-2 (of 2-3) copies of Tranquil Thicket in the sb and Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog in the main? I know some people put a Depths copy for one of the two, but why not the thickets instead? My logic is as follows: Karakas and Bog help you against a number of matches that can be sort of unfavored (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Storm) or even (Lands) game 1.

But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D). Now don't get me wrong, I love some utility, so I would personally keep one in the maindeck. But why not put the extra copies in the SB where you will bring them in against graveyard hate? Why not have maindeck answers to those archetypes that can give us early trouble in game 1?

Again, I am a new player, so forgive me if there is some glaring reason this is a horrible idea. I'd love to hear the opinions of some lands vets.

I would like to counter your questions with a question: what would you drop in your SB for Thicket?

Thicket helps you in all the ways you decribed, but I do not consider it win-more or SB-material.

[Rivfader]

Question for the forum:

I'm a new lands player, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question, but I can't help but wonder: Why aren't 1-2 (of 2-3) copies of Tranquil Thicket in the sb and Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog in the main? I know some people put a Depths copy for one of the two, but why not the thickets instead? My logic is as follows: Karakas and Bog help you against a number of matches that can be sort of unfavored (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Storm) or even (Lands) game 1.

But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D). Now don't get me wrong, I love some utility, so I would personally keep one in the maindeck. But why not put the extra copies in the SB where you will bring them in against graveyard hate? Why not have maindeck answers to those archetypes that can give us early trouble in game 1?

Again, I am a new player, so forgive me if there is some glaring reason this is a horrible idea. I'd love to hear the opinions of some lands vets.

It's a good question, youre in the right place to ask it. Lands needs a minimum amount of green sources. Usually that's 3-4 fetches, 3 fetchable lands (forest, 2 taiga), 4 groves and 2 thickets. It's hard to go under this minimal amount of green sourcres, as you would sometimes have to mulligan away good hands (like exploration, loam) due to not having green mana. Although it comes into play tapped (and is vulnerable to wasteland), thicket is one of the best G-producing utility-lands, for all reasons you've summed up.
So basically it is a matter of a minimal amount of green mana, why you can't switch thickets for other nongreen-utilitylands.

EDIT: in addition to the other comments given, one utility of Thicket wasn't mentioned in your list. Thicket allows you to dredge and draw in the same turn, which is important if you're specifically looking for a nonrecurrable card as an exploration, gamble, croprotation, or sideboardcard.

[Dice_Box]

Another reason is that graveyard interaction is normally ramped up games 2 and 3 so your a little less interested in going all in on the Dredge plan. Game 1 you normally have an open field and having the chance to just power though your deck at speed is powerful. Also, don't forget that once Loaming, what you find is really up to chance. It is what you flip. Holding down a Goyf without a Maze can be a headache but being able to Dredge 6 cards a turn can really help.

It is easier to cut things like Manabond then it is to cut Thicket. Manabond is a powerful effect, helps unbalance your impact on the board, but I feel having access to more options even if you have less land drops to be the more powerful effect.

[gigapatrick]

Question for the forum:
But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D).

I'd say the strongest functions are A, B, and C rather than D. Loaming numerous times a turn isn't win more; it can allow you to stabilize by finding a Maze of Ith or Glacial Chasm when you need it, or it can find a combo piece when you're trying to win before you get locked out of the game. It also just makes the deck more consistent by cycling when you don't need it or by giving you both a draw step and a dredge of Loam. Also, the fact that it can be played alternatively as a green-mana producer is important against taxing effects (your own, and someone else's). It's just a great, versatile card that the deck wants. I wish I could play three (like I used to).

[Admiral Nobeard]

I have not had problems.

Just as bad as grip in terms of loam and gamble. Mox diamond, riftstone, karakas, thespians stage. Stays on the BF. Do you like loaming grip away? A 5th out to problematic enchantments.

I kinda like this idea, actually. How many do you run in your side? I figure just one would be enough in most cases since we're running four Grip already.

[barcode]

Question for the forum:

I'm a new lands player, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question, but I can't help but wonder: Why aren't 1-2 (of 2-3) copies of Tranquil Thicket in the sb and Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog in the main? I know some people put a Depths copy for one of the two, but why not the thickets instead? My logic is as follows: Karakas and Bog help you against a number of matches that can be sort of unfavored (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Storm) or even (Lands) game 1.

But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D). Now don't get me wrong, I love some utility, so I would personally keep one in the maindeck. But why not put the extra copies in the SB where you will bring them in against graveyard hate? Why not have maindeck answers to those archetypes that can give us early trouble in game 1?

Again, I am a new player, so forgive me if there is some glaring reason this is a horrible idea. I'd love to hear the opinions of some lands vets.

Thicket acts as:

• Loam protection
• Mana source
• Additional land to discard
• Draw spell
• Accelerant with Manabond+Loam

All of these are worthwhile things for a card to be doing in the maindeck. "Win more" isn't really a thing for a prison deck. When you are ahead you should strive to get more ahead until you can safely unfurl your win condition.

As another poster said these are a waste of 2-3 slots in your sideboard.

[gigapatrick]

Hello all.

A couple videos, and a promise to post a third a little later.

Building a Fortress #60

Building a Fortress #61

Unfortunately, the first of these matches features a pretty obvious mulligan decision in game two that I make incorrectly. Ugh. Enjoy anyway.

[Layalouhamesh]

Hi all!

I won a small 14 player tournament last w-e with a copy of Jarvis Yu's list (congrats by the way, if you come across this post).
The deck is really funny to play, and very efficient. Dark Depths *4 really do the job.

The one thing I find discutable is the split 4 fetches / 3 fetchable. I understand that due to the increase of Blood Moon in the meta, it is a good thing to do to prefer the fetches more than the mana sources, but why not playing a Ghost Quarter instead? It allows you to fetch your forest if required, while keeping pressure on the opponent's basic lands.

Also, I didn't miss the 2nd Manabond at all. It is true that when you have it, the game is fastly won, but Exploration is nearly always just as good.
I was wondering if removing the last Manabond for a Sylvan Library would be a good option. It allows you to dredge multiple times a turn, and is still a good card post-board in the sense that it helps finding the hate.

[Djehuti]

Question for the forum:

I'm a new lands player, so forgive me if this is a ridiculous question, but I can't help but wonder: Why aren't 1-2 (of 2-3) copies of Tranquil Thicket in the sb and Karakas and/or Bojuka Bog in the main? I know some people put a Depths copy for one of the two, but why not the thickets instead? My logic is as follows: Karakas and Bog help you against a number of matches that can be sort of unfavored (Reanimator, Show and Tell, Storm) or even (Lands) game 1.

But all Tranquil Thicket does is help you:
A) Loam numerous times a turn when we are in a good position. Counterpoint: This seems win more.
B) Cycle. Counterpoint: Is playing 57-58 cards that great when we have enough trouble fitting cards into our crowded 75?
C) A green source of mana on t1/t2. Counterpoint: There are only a few opening hands that look good with a t1 tapped green source and I would think they'd have to include both Exploration, Loam and a bunch of colorless land. This deck mulligans so well, how often are we scoring these hands we wouldn't be dumping otherwise if Thicket was our only source of colored mana? And if it's getting pitched to Mox or used as a second colorless land, then Bog/Karakas can do the same thing.
D) To save loams from graveyard hate. Counterpoint: This is a sideboard function.

I think the strongest function is D). Now don't get me wrong, I love some utility, so I would personally keep one in the maindeck. But why not put the extra copies in the SB where you will bring them in against graveyard hate? Why not have maindeck answers to those archetypes that can give us early trouble in game 1?

Again, I am a new player, so forgive me if there is some glaring reason this is a horrible idea. I'd love to hear the opinions of some lands vets.

Your logic is sound and I used to play bog and karakas main so I get where you're coming from. You could always choose to play with the bog and karakas in the main if it gives you more confidence playing the deck or if you have a local meta that warrants some silver bullets. Personally, I think the decision is meta dependent so I'd rather have the thickets in competitive tournaments to fight through deathrite shamans and dig deeper than have bog and karakas be dead in 50% of my potential matchups. That number might seem arbitrary but according to MTGGoldfish, the top 7 most popular decks are as follows: Miracles @ 14.46%, Storm @ 7.63%, BURg delver @7.23%, Shardless BUG @6.83, Elves @6.02%, BUG delver @5.62%, infect @4.42% (These are over 50% of the current meta). Tranquil thicket seems better in most of these matchups except for storm where bog could be clever to turn off a dark petition spell mastery or fizzle a past in flames turn.

[gigapatrick]

As promised:

Building a Fortress #62

[Djehuti]

aura fracture was the card i was looking for. i ran across tranquil grove.

I think fracture might be a bit too narrow though

Did you ever get a chance to try tranquil grove? If you did, do you think it is worth a sideboard slot? I definitely like the idea of a repeatable disenchant/naturalize effect as fetchcaviar brought up with Aura fracture which i'd also be willing to try. It also got me thinking about the new commander plainswalker freyalise since shes green, hits artifacts, doesn't get wear/teared, makes dudes/mana, draws cards, and is harder to counter off of CB than grove (assuming this kind of effect is specifically wanted for the miracles matchup), the drawbacks of course being that you don't kill more than one enchantment at a time, she's more expensive, and you can only do it once every few turns. Any thoughts on it?

[jarvisyu]

Did you ever get a chance to try tranquil grove? If you did, do you think it is worth a sideboard slot? I definitely like the idea of a repeatable disenchant/naturalize effect as fetchcaviar brought up with Aura fracture which i'd also be willing to try. It also got me thinking about the new commander plainswalker freyalise since shes green, hits artifacts, doesn't get wear/teared, makes dudes/mana, draws cards, and is harder to counter off of CB than grove (assuming this kind of effect is specifically wanted for the miracles matchup), the drawbacks of course being that you don't kill more than one enchantment at a time, she's more expensive, and you can only do it once every few turns. Any thoughts on it?

The issue with Grove is that it kills your own Explorations.

I think Fracture is probably better, but I'd have to expect a lot of Blood Moons / Counterbalances to want either of those cards

[Croprot]

The issue with Grove is that it kills your own Explorations.

I think Fracture is probably better, but I'd have to expect a lot of Blood Moons / Counterbalances to want either of those cards

Do you think it replaces 1 choke in the board so it's a 1-1 split

[j2los]

Your logic is sound and I used to play bog and karakas main so I get where you're coming from. You could always choose to play with the bog and karakas in the main if it gives you more confidence playing the deck or if you have a local meta that warrants some silver bullets. Personally, I think the decision is meta dependent so I'd rather have the thickets in competitive tournaments to fight through deathrite shamans and dig deeper than have bog and karakas be dead in 50% of my potential matchups. That number might seem arbitrary but according to MTGGoldfish, the top 7 most popular decks are as follows: Miracles @ 14.46%, Storm @ 7.63%, BURg delver @7.23%, Shardless BUG @6.83, Elves @6.02%, BUG delver @5.62%, infect @4.42% (These are over 50% of the current meta). Tranquil thicket seems better in most of these matchups except for storm where bog could be clever to turn off a dark petition spell mastery or fizzle a past in flames turn.

I definitely didn't think about Shamans. That's a big tally in the maindeck column.

I would like to counter your questions with a question: what would you drop in your SB for Thicket?

Thicket helps you in all the ways you decribed, but I do not consider it win-more or SB-material.

Nothing, the proposition is the thickets swap with bog and/or karakas


Thanks for the input everyone. I guess the consensus is the versatility adds up. I guess as a new lands player, I noticed more often I was wishing I had karakas/bog as a maindeck response to something that was threatening a g1 loss and noticing more often that in g1 I was just cycling away the thicket just because it was there. The only times I was really looking for thicket were to save loams and cycle for sideboard cards, so it seemed like better sb material. This is all likely small sample size though. Just wanted to pose the question for discussion.

[Chatto]

Well, it's good to discuss certain cards. I for one take some cards for granted, new people asking questions makes you reconsider certain desicions. I'm trying Riftstone Portal, after some debate here and recent succes, for instance. I even put the 4th DD in my main again.