[Article] No Reserved List Legacy

[dte]

The issue was, here is someone that has never played Legacy who thinks this idea is the best thing ever, because regardless of the impacts on the format, then he could play it.
[...]
We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy,

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

[Dice_Box]

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

But we have that Format, the one Wizards can control that is not bound by the list. It exists, its real. He can not afford to play Legacy so he plays Modern. That's fine. I even offered to lend him decks, he was not into that. Then he talks of how there was a proxy event that was near him and he hates proxies... I mean you can not please everyone. If you could my puppy would stop chewing on my phone cables.

[Crimhead]

Matt, while I wouldn't be against a non-reserved list reprint of say, force, waste, karakas, port etc in principle, I'd be worried about the ramifications of such a move. I mean, let's say that happens. Legacy get's more popular because whooop, you can crack force of will in boosterpacks and the price of force drops to like half of what it is. Well then more players want in to the format. However, the duals (and a few other cards like cradle, LED etc) now get even more expensive because the more non-reserved list staples get reprinted and drop in price, the more people will be looking at getting into the format, the more expensive the reserved list staples are bound to get. What will happen then?

Here's what might happen:

• Prospective budget players will have better access to D&T, Merfolk, and Manaless Dredge (with FoW) instead of just Burn and Manaless, Forceless Dredge.
• If other staples rise in response, that can only mean more people are buying them up to stick in decks.

All this points to real format growth, and great diversification in the budget sector. While it might not be in WotC's interests to help more customers into a format that entails less financial upkeep, I see no drawback for the format itself (assuming it doesn't cause WotC to go under).

Duals, of course, are the biggest issue (among RL staples). There is a wide selection of decks which use nothing else reserved; and these are often the decks most people want to play (midranged and tempo decks). The reserve list is easy to get around with dual lands by making close equivalents. My favourites are duals with a reverse rats clause (limit three per deck), or duals with a small draw back (damage, CIPT, etc) but only if you have more than two opponents. It's not so easy to do this with other cards like Tabernacle, LED, or City of Traitors because you give decks that want them extra copies.

But for now WotC doesn't want to print "equal but different" duals, nor do they want to print much in the way of high end non-RL staples. So we watch our format suffer stagnant growth and even declination in certain areas. :(

[HdH_Cthulhu]

We are a group who understand what this would do, but to the outsiders this idea seems great. This leads me to think this is not a true suggestion to help Legacy, but a way to get views for a site that has little market share in the shadow of SCG and Channelfireball. Because it has found a home in the minds of some but these happen to be the some that do not understand what losing Duals mean. I guess if they go on posting Modern and Standard content and get eyes on it well mission accomplished.

The point of this is to drag in more "outsiders" into legacy. But I agree with you, its not worth it!

[barcode]

What you posted leads me to think it would be a great way to help legacy.
The guy basically said that he would play and so that the legacy player base would grow. Great!
We are a group that cannot understand a thing, because the idea is to attract dual-less people.

Let's keep in mind that the format the article is talking about is NOT legacy. These changes would not help anyone get into Legacy because Legacy has a reserved list.

[Crimhead]

Let's keep in mind that the format the article is talking about is NOT legacy. These changes would not help anyone get into Legacy because Legacy has a reserved list.

No, MTG has a reserved list. Legacy has a banned list that does not happen to encompass every card on that reserved list.

The changes proposed would alter Legacy radically. But changes to the banned list (even large sweeping changes indicative of as changing banned list philosophy) are still just changes to the banned list. Removing all sets prior to Masques is a more fundamental change - that would be a new format.

[kirkusjones]

When they made the reserved list they said they wouldn't make functional reprints. So they can't make 1 mana blue instant that says "target player draws 3 cards" even if they call it "Brain Growth" or whatever.

A great example of functional reprints are Lightning Strike and Searing Spear. However Chain Lightning and Lava Spike are different because Lava Spike can't target creatures and can't be bounced back.

So "Swampy Island" wouldn't work because it would still be a land with types Swamp and Island with no other drawback (like the shocklands are a drawback).

ninja edit: However: they could probably get away with, U, Instant, You draw 3 cards. Or, U, Sorcery, You draw 3 cards. The problem is that now Vintage has 2 Ancestral Recall cards.

Not even in an un-set? Which is not really legal anywhere? It would be similar to those world champion edition cards or collector editions.

[Crimhead]

Not even in an un-set? Which is not really legal anywhere? It would be similar to those world champion edition cards or collector editions.

I believe the reserved list applies to tournament legal cards only. On the other hand, of doesn't help or affect Legacy much to print cards not legal in Legacy!

[kirkusjones]

I believe the reserved list applies to tournament legal cards only. On the other hand, of doesn't help or affect Legacy much to print cards not legal in Legacy!

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

[Phoenix Ignition]

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

I like this solution, though would it actually replace those cards in commander? If I could play Tundra and Un-Tundra in an EDH deck, wouldn't I just play both and not unload the Legacy playable ones?

[barcode]

I like this solution, though would it actually replace those cards in commander? If I could play Tundra and Un-Tundra in an EDH deck, wouldn't I just play both and not unload the Legacy playable ones?

This is the problem with functional reprints: WoTC would just give another copy of the original card.

[TsumiBand]

You have to keep in mind the letter and spirit of the Reprint Policy, which maintains the value of cards by not only never printing any cards on the list but, as time has shown, not printing anything that could be considered "in the ballpark" of those cards.

There was an actual outcry from RP proponents when Reverberate was printed because of its similarity to Fork. MaRo's comments on this are pretty well-traveled. There will be no Snow Duals or Legendary Tundras or anything that i a clear attempt to circumvent the RP; collectors know the game and they can spot a one-off as easily as the rest of us. Anything that would represent a true stand-in for RP cards just won't ever be considered. It's not even about who can be the cleverest Shitty Card Creator, it's been tried in the form of Judge foils and promo cards and Duel Deck reprints and "near-identical" reprints and WotC gets called out by the invisible empire every time. You can't shit a shitter.

THAT in and of itself is another point of insanity to me, because other collectibles exist in modernized forms and no one is threatening legal action over it. Action Comics #1 is easily available in a number of media, and cheaply; however, the few Action Comcs #1 that remain from 1938 go for millions. Guitars constantly go though cycles of popularity and see reissues of varying authenticity, but a legit pre-war Martin D-28 or an original Broadcaster is the actual collectors' item.

Apart from items which are impossible to reproduce - there can be no more *actual* Fabergé eggs or Stradivarius violins - there has continually been an understood separation between the collectors' items and those intended "for the rest of us". While my efforts to self-educate on the economic and/or legal precedence of this matter are not exhaustive, I've yet to hear of anything that matches this level of artificial scarcity (in terms of gaming or hobbyist activities, anyway - I'm not comfortable comparing actions within the Magic economy to insider trading or real-world cartels, precisely because I think the scope of the discussion matters so much. We are talking about Hasbro, not Chrysler or AIG ffs).

[Crimhead]

This is the problem with functional reprints: WoTC would just give another copy of the original card.

Giving decks extra copies of LED or City of Traitors will be an issue. Letting decks run up to eight copies of a dual land is not a very big deal - and most decks won't want to besides.

[Mr. Safety]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

[barcode]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

I imagine Miracles players would like to play more Flooded Strands.

[TsumiBand]

I'm going to try and flip the coin on the duals. Is the only solution to print more duals or is there a solution with new fetches?

For example:

Azorius Fetchland

Tap, pay one life: search your library for a land that can produce blue and white mana and put it onto the battlefield, then shuffle your library.

The design space is open for many variations but the fundamental change is that it won't look for a land type, just a color producing ability. The idea of fetching rainbow lands seems cool and the many dual land variations all become almost as good as true dual lands. Hell, some will be situationally better than shocklands like the buddy lands (if you can meet their requirement to enter untapped.) The reserved list is as sacred as anything in magic, but fetches are completely open for change.

Thoughts?

I know we don't play Tolarian Academy in Legacy but daaang

[Lemnear]

I know we don't play Tolarian Academy in Legacy but daaang

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

[kirkusjones]

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

What if it was a fetch that instead of paying one life, you had to pay one mana of a color the fetched land would produce? So in the case of Mr. Safety's Azorious land, you'd have to pay white or blue? I guess that would still be a much better crop rotation...

[barcode]

I think you're looking for the Obligatory shitty card creation thread...

[Mr. Safety]

But you can fetch Gaea's Cradle with that landcycle and Academy in Vintage. Stupid idea

Wrong. The land fetched would have to produce 2 colors. You would not be able to fetch basic lands. Both cradle and academy would be excluded. Read the example again.