[Article] No Reserved List Legacy

[sjmcc13]

Wrong. The land fetched would have to produce 2 colors. You would not be able to fetch basic lands. Both cradle and academy would be excluded. Read the example again.

It does tutor up any 5 color land though...

[Mr. Safety]

It does tutor up any 5 color land though...

Sure, I mentioned that in my first post. That seems hardly broken in light of legacy as a format (wasteland, blood moon.) Considering the approach of wotc in terms of trying to have a balanced play experience, having perfect mana in all formats while allowing the deep pool of modern and legacy to self-regulate seems within their interests. If modern gets out of hand they are more than willing to take control with a ban.

I am not married to this idea, its not even that good. It does however open up a conversation on how to provide powerful mana-bases for the masses while leaving the reserved list alone. I don't think wotc will give up their baby (modern) by banning the reserved list. There is still more uncharted territory out there (whether or not wotc finds good solutions is up in the air, but they will certainly attempt it without compromising on the rl.)

[Nonex]

I actually like that idea a lot. It's simple, elegant, circumvents the reserved list, and I personally had never seen it before, make duals without types fetchable. A quick search reveals that there aren't that many choices for Legacy, and they aren't as desirable as ABU duals, but still work. We'd get the ten painlands as the most probable targets, followed by the ten taplands (was that their nickname?). Nimbus Maze and the rest of the Future Sight cycle deserves a mention too; Graven Cairns can be extended to the rest of the Shadowmoor/Eventide cycle.

Rainbow lands would be City of Brass, Mana Confluence, Gemstone Mine for some decks, Thran Quarry for some others, Cavern of Souls, maaaybe Forbidden Orchard, and as very situational lands we'd get Reflecting Pool or Ancient Ziggurat. All of them have some kind of drawback, albeit manageable. All other lands I've seen either enter tapped, require sacrifices, or impose heavy restrictions on their maintenance or the obtention or usage of their mana.

Also, I agree with Wizards's apparent take on manabases. Getting locked out of a color by simply not drawing the appropiate land stopped being common a long time ago, and now it requires an opponent actively throwing disruption at you. In addition, any possible power creep derived from fetching these lands is counterbalanced 1) by being forced to find duals matching both colors, pushing 2-color decks or the inclusion of rainbow lands if you want more, and 2) by not being able to get basics, thus never getting to avoid Wasteland or Blood Moon.

But there's a little problem, and it's that when I started writing this I thought the concept was to fetch lands that produce one color OR the other, allowing basics and ridiculous stuff like Karakas or Gaea's Cradle too, which is why I liked the idea so much. I understand why force both colors though, but then the current Legacy doesn't really need a cycle of these fetches: everyone would simply fetch rainbow lands to keep up with the fetch/ABU duals' versatility. Might as well print two or three functionally identical cards that read "Search your library for a basic land card or a land card that could produce mana of any color" and call it a day. Some decks would still care about Islands to pay for their Dazes and Gushes anyway.

[Mr. Safety]

Fetching powerful lands should cost you a spell and mana. Stabilizing color requirements is really all that fetches are designed to do (and that is enough really.) Wotc also hates combo decks, so turning a fetchland into a Demonic Tutor would never fly. Crop Rotation is as close as we'll get in that regard I think.

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

[Watersaw]

My thought would be Wizards and the RC make them legal for commander. This would eliminate the demand for duals in that format, as they would have access to cheaper versions. I play mostly commander at this point and would gladly offload the duals I own to replace with un-versions. I get some extra cash to buy more commander stuff, a few more duals get into rotation for legacy. It's not a quick solution, but it circumvents the reserved list and is profitable for Wizards and has a decent chance of increasing the supply of dual lands for the format that really needs them. This is obviously a far-fetched scenario, but this whole idea of banning everything on the reserved list to make legacy better is far-fetched too. In a perfect world, Wizards would abolish the reserved list and reprint the duals and a buttload of other legacy staples, but they've shown time and again they don't really care about Legacy. They care about cashcow formats. And with commander-only duals, they can make a format that's already popular even more profitable.

That wouldn't actually do anything. EDH players would just put Plisland in their deck next to the Tundra they already own.

[Nonex]

Fetching powerful lands should cost you a spell and mana. Stabilizing color requirements is really all that fetches are designed to do (and that is enough really.) Wotc also hates combo decks, so turning a fetchland into a Demonic Tutor would never fly. Crop Rotation is as close as we'll get in that regard I think.

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

I'm convinced the dual lands are the only problem. Other Legacy staples in the list may be expensive right now, but none has ever reached prices that absurd. If only the dual lands were removed from the list (and then actually reprinted), I'm sure 99,9% of the complaints about the list would disappear and pretty much no one would care about its existence.

[barcode]

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

Fucking An-Zerrin Ruins. Can't believe how expensive they are for what the card does. It's bullshit that WoTC holds themselves to their reserved list and doesn't reprint this staple card. /s

When people talk about the reserved list it is always and only about expensive cards and never about the 550 other cards on the list.

[keys]

All they need to do is reprint more of the valuable non-RL cards.

Commander and other special sets would be a great way to get more FoWs and Wastelands into circulation, grow the player base, and make WOTC an easy buck.

I don't see the need to ban all the dual lands to make the format cheaper, since it's one of the main reasons people play Legacy over Modern.

Legalizing all the IE, CE, and WCD cards is another (perhaps more drastic) option that won't break the format or the reserved list.

[GundamGuy]

Other Legacy staples in the list may be expensive right now, but none has ever reached prices that absurd.

I can think of plenty of Legacy "staples" that are on the reserve list that are more expensive then dual lands.

Candelabra of Tawnos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Yes it's a handful, and yes you don't have to a playset of some of them, but while it's true that 95% of the Reserved List issue is the Dual Lands, there are a handful of other cards that suffer from it too.

Also if you just made Dual Lands plentyful some of these other cards on the list would spike in price (these plus others I didn't mention, because they are expensive but not in the same ball park as a Dual Lands) because of increased demand.

[TsumiBand]

The bigger issue with trying to print cards that "fix the glitch" is that overwhelmingly those same cards end up bolstering the existing decks that play the very cards they're trying to obviate (or at least render 'less crucial').

Safety's fetches don't *not* get Tundras, and they also fetch a variety of 3+color lands and make it way easy to skirt their drawbacks to boot. Seaside Citadel is always going to be better in a deck with duals and Odyssey fetches than one without. I don't think there's an easy way around that, except in those rare times where you can fill in the gaps of an existing "not-a-deck" that prompts people to give it another look like RtR's cards did. It didn't fix any mana but it at least made people want to play in their decks. vOv

[tescrin]

I can think of plenty of Legacy "staples" that are on the reserve list that are more expensive then dual lands.

Candelabra of Tawnos
Chains of Mephistopheles
Moat
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Yes it's a handful, and yes you don't have to a playset of some of them, but while it's true that 95% of the Reserved List issue is the Dual Lands, there are a handful of other cards that suffer from it too.

Also if you just made Dual Lands plentyful some of these other cards on the list would spike in price (these plus others I didn't mention, because they are expensive but not in the same ball park as a Dual Lands) because of increased demand.

Add:
Goyf
JtMS
Liliana
Force of Will
Wasteland
Rishadan Port
Grove of the Burnwillows
etc..

These are all more (or roughly as) expensive than Plateau, Scrubland, Savannah, Badlands, Taiga, etc.. and some are more expensive Bayou.

This is all just a bunch of "budget legacy" propaganda that doesn't understand how economics works.

[Mr. Safety]

The bigger issue with trying to print cards that "fix the glitch" is that overwhelmingly those same cards end up bolstering the existing decks that play the very cards they're trying to obviate (or at least render 'less crucial').

Safety's fetches don't *not* get Tundras, and they also fetch a variety of 3+color lands and make it way easy to skirt their drawbacks to boot. Seaside Citadel is always going to be better in a deck with duals and Odyssey fetches than one without. I don't think there's an easy way around that, except in those rare times where you can fill in the gaps of an existing "not-a-deck" that prompts people to give it another look like RtR's cards did. It didn't fix any mana but it at least made people want to play in their decks. vOv

Good points. However...if these theoretical fetches can't get basics I think they would be of little consequence to existing mana bases already established. These wouldn't be better, they would be an alternative for allowing a deeper playable pool of dual lands. This would allow newer players to have a less painful (than shocklands) fetch-dual mana base that still provides a shuffle effect for brainstorm (because we're really talking blue here right? Non blue duals aren't nearly as oppressively costed as blues.) Again, its just an idea, and not neccessarily a good one.

Good discussion. In the spirit of simplifying my argument, all I mean is this: providing more access to abu duals is one way to solve the issue; printing new alternative lands that make other duals functionally identical to abu duals is another possibility.

[Dice_Box]

Beyond dual lands, what else is really on the reserved list that is causing problems?

The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale.

[SaberTooth]

it would be better if they dont ban the cards, but create a new format with these rules (no reserved list cards)

[barcode]

it would be better if they dont ban the cards, but create a new format with these rules (no reserved list cards)

Just play Modern. You'll have the same watered down feel of Magic.

[SaberTooth]

Just play Modern. You'll have the same watered down feel of Magic.

Really? brainstorm, FOW, wasteland, dark ritual, etc, are not watered down magic

[GundamGuy]

Really? brainstorm, FOW, wasteland, dark ritual, etc, are not watered down magic

Wasteland in a format without dual lands and only Shocklands seems really OP.

[GrimoirePath]

Isnt the point of Legacy to get to play with more of Magic's catalogue of cards, not less? This idea is cutting off the head to spite the headache. "Hey everyone, we made Legacy suck more, so now you can play!" Gee, I can see the modern players just lining up...

In my head I think we need to unban more cards, not ban more. Every banning just makes the cards the next step down the power level more important. As for costs, more banning just means devaluing, and devaluing will make people less willing to buy anything expensive, fearing it will just be banned down the line.

And frankly, if WotC banned everything on the reserve list, that would just push people who love legacy off to the fringes to play what they like in unsanctioned events.

[Blastoderm]

How about we close this thread?

[Pdingo]

pls close this thread thanks!