[Deck] Jund

[Ricardio]

I've been playing Truths in a bunch of Nic Fit decks, it's really strong. But you can't play it in a deck with BBE.

Buts it's basically like shard less into visions /sarcasm.

I think we might play too much removal and the two drop spot is so heavy right now. I like the idea of more 1 drops because 8 seems low.

[Bobmans]

, but for now I'll stick to the flexibility of Zenith

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sensei's Divining Top (adding up to 13 proper one-drops to aid the mana curve)

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Reclamation Sage

You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.

[Seraphix]

Buts it's basically like shard less into visions /sarcasm.

I think we might play too much removal and the two drop spot is so heavy right now. I like the idea of more 1 drops because 8 seems low.

Cascading into Painful Truths seems really sweet tbh. But the only obvious cut I see in a stock build is the Library/Top type thing.

EDIT: This doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm an idiot.

You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.

I've considered Mirri's Guile but decided it was worse than both Top and Library. One of the advantages of Top over Library in my opinion is that its harder to blow up, which is very relevant against midrange and control decks. If I'm going to play a thing that just gets blown up I'd rather spend an extra mana for a library that can give me an opportunity to net cards.

I think once you start going deep on GSZ you have to wonder why you aren't just playing Punishing Nic-Fit. That's not a bad thing, its just a different deck.

[sdematt]

Cascading into Painful Truths seems really sweet tbh. But the only obvious cut I see in a stock build is the Library/Top type thing.

EDIT: This doesn't work the way I think it does, I'm an idiot.



I've considered Mirri's Guile but decided it was worse than both Top and Library. One of the advantages of Top over Library in my opinion is that its harder to blow up, which is very relevant against midrange and control decks. If I'm going to play a thing that just gets blown up I'd rather spend an extra mana for a library that can give me an opportunity to net cards.

I think once you start going deep on GSZ you have to wonder why you aren't just playing Punishing Nic-Fit. That's not a bad thing, its just a different deck.

Truths and sylvan should be enough. Without BBE you can play Truths

[sdematt]

Ill post my list later today.

[Asthereal]

You miss Scavenging Ooze, Courser of Kruphix, perhaps Huntmaster of the Fells and whatnot. This is a waste of GSZ, tbh. I see no real advantage in running GSZ if you have no real targets (aside of Teeg). I really like the idea of an hybrid Jund build tho. Will be following this.

Also Mirri's Guile is an easily overlooked card. It's a 1 mana investment that does nearly the same as you want SDT to do, but for free.

And no Kolaghan's Command? This card is a 2-for-1 in any case. Manacurve should not be an excuse.

My thoughts on those:
- Never considered Kolaghan's Command. It seems strong, but for three mana killing a small guy and perhaps discarding a card? I'm not sure whether that's actually that good.
- Mirri's Guile is a card, but the draw Top can get me is appealing. It also helps me to shuffle it away if I draw multiples. Just draw with it and then fetch. Guile doesn't do that. Seraphix's concern that it dies to removal I don't really share. If they want to waste a card on destroying that thing, that's fine my me. That feels like a waste of perfectly usable resources.

- Zenith into Huntmaster seems a little overelaborate. Huntmaster in itself is a good card though, but I'm not sure where to fit him in. Additionally, if I wanted a four drop, I would probably think of Garruk Relentless first. It might be worth a shot as 1/2-of though. Castable through Teeg (useful against f.i. Miracles) and it's about as high-impact as Bloodbraid, especially if he sticks. I'm adding him to my list of potential additions.
- Scooze was in there but got cut since Deathrite usually takes that role, but it could find its way back in. Not sure yet whether I really need it. Goyf is usually just fine as attacker.
- Courser is way too controllish for me. I don't think it fits our strategy.

I was planning on using Zenith mostly as either a Llanowar Elf or a CMC3 Goyf, with the additional benefit that it can get me Teeg, Deathrite or Reclamation Sage when that's necessary. Multi-purpose, without becoming an overly cute toolbox. That's why I didn't add too many targets. Playing many targets will ultimately lead to situations where you draw your targets when they suck, and my main goal was to streamline Jund as much as possible. It seemed wrong to undermine that idea.

[tescrin]

I was planning on using Zenith mostly as either a Llanowar Elf or a CMC3 Goyf, with the additional benefit that it can get me Teeg, Deathrite or Reclamation Sage when that's necessary. Multi-purpose, without becoming an overly cute toolbox. That's why I didn't add too many targets. Playing many targets will ultimately lead to situations where you draw your targets when they suck, and my main goal was to streamline Jund as much as possible.

I found that when I tried this in Junk, it was a bit mediocre against other midrange decks, which is where Goyf is good. Thalia really gums up the works and I found that a CMC3 or CMC4 Goyf was alarmingly worse, as dumb as that may sound.

At any rate, if your game against D&T/Maverick is still good then more power to ya; this is the type of thing I wouldn't mind figuring out.

[sdematt]

I found that when I tried this in Junk, it was a bit mediocre against other midrange decks, which is where Goyf is good. Thalia really gums up the works and I found that a CMC3 or CMC4 Goyf was alarmingly worse, as dumb as that may sound.

At any rate, if your game against D&T/Maverick is still good then more power to ya; this is the type of thing I wouldn't mind figuring out.

I wasn't thinking GSZ, but it's not a terrible idea. I was thinking since you're not cascading, you can now breathe the true power of Painful Truths. If you use it to "replace" Confidant, it means you can run your threat curve a bit higher.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker
14

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
23

Basically, the build eschews Confidant to try a higher curve and Painful Truths. With graveyard pressure being low in a time post-Dig, why not try Tombstalker? Huntmaster is also seemingly good in a Shardless meta, as is the Fires engine. Tombstalker solves the Angler problem of being chumped on the ground, and since we're more heavy into black, we don't care about the 2 more mana. Koth is also a concession to a higher curve and to beating Miracles more handily in Game 1. Confidant is really good in that matchup, so we'll see.

It also means by dropping Bob, you get to run Golgari Charm/Deluge without worrying as much, since that was also a big concern - I have the Charm, but I want to keep Confidants.

Sideboard can obviously be tuned or what have you.

[Asthereal]

I wasn't thinking GSZ, but it's not a terrible idea. I was thinking since you're not cascading, you can now breathe the true power of Painful Truths. If you use it to "replace" Confidant, it means you can run your threat curve a bit higher.

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker
14

4 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Painful Truths
2 Sylvan Library
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Koth of the Hammer
2 Lightning Bolt

4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
23

Basically, the build eschews Confidant to try a higher curve and Painful Truths. With graveyard pressure being low in a time post-Dig, why not try Tombstalker? Huntmaster is also seemingly good in a Shardless meta, as is the Fires engine. Tombstalker solves the Angler problem of being chumped on the ground, and since we're more heavy into black, we don't care about the 2 more mana. Koth is also a concession to a higher curve and to beating Miracles more handily in Game 1. Confidant is really good in that matchup, so we'll see.

It also means by dropping Bob, you get to run Golgari Charm/Deluge without worrying as much, since that was also a big concern - I have the Charm, but I want to keep Confidants.

Sideboard can obviously be tuned or what have you.

Couple things:
1. Your mana curve is 9 CMC1 - 2 of which often are not usable on turn 1, 18 CMC2, 6 CMC3 and 5 CMC4+. (Counting Stalker in that last one, since we're never casting him before turn 4. We don't run cantrips.) I would never play that. I need at least 11 reliable one drops, preferably 13+. Going down from the usual 8 to 7 seems very bad.
2. Your land base seems off. Why the Taiga? I'd run as much fetch as possible to fuel Deathrites mana ability, plus if you run Tombstalker without cantrips, you really need to find a way to fuel his delve.
3. If you want to up your curve, Zenith+Arbor seems a very natural addition, allowing you to ramp into that higher curve.
4. I would first try Garruk Relentless over Koth. Better all round abilities, and we run very little Mountains.
5. This list has 61 cards main deck.

[tescrin]

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tombstalker

I think this is a bit overly weak to RiP. I liked Tasigur as my "bob replacement" until I ran into the local "FUCK ALL GRAVEYARDS FOREVER" guy a couple times. Maybe I'm a bit paranoid at the moment.

EDIT: On Mirri's Guile
It's ok. I liked it as a way to add 1-drops to a deck if you need more consistent T1 plays but don't have the reliable mana to go Topping. That said, it's a little sad you can never do anything with it to get your card back. It's nice you don't have to spend mana, but it's a bit obnoxious you can't get that card that was 4th down or that second card out of the stack of 3 the turn you need to; you just have to be perpetually patient.

I did tend to win games I started with it, and being on curve or another use for T2 Deathrite mana felt good and it can't be hosed (Revoker, anti-draw cards), but it is a bit of a price to pay. Top's dichotomy tends to be that you need all of your mana, but you want to adjust the top cards so you can not draw garbage or so you can sequence properly.

[Asthereal]

EDIT: On Mirri's Guile
It's ok. I liked it as a way to add 1-drops to a deck if you need more consistent T1 plays but don't have the reliable mana to go Topping. That said, it's a little sad you can never do anything with it to get your card back. It's nice you don't have to spend mana, but it's a bit obnoxious you can't get that card that was 4th down or that second card out of the stack of 3 the turn you need to; you just have to be perpetually patient.

I did tend to win games I started with it, and being on curve or another use for T2 Deathrite mana felt good and it can't be hosed (Revoker, anti-draw cards), but it is a bit of a price to pay. Top's dichotomy tends to be that you need all of your mana, but you want to adjust the top cards so you can not draw garbage or so you can sequence properly.

That last point is very true. My basic rule is this: do I have stuff to do that either influences the board or disrupts my combo-playing opponent, then I do that. Activating Top is only done with mana I can actually spare or have left over after the above is considered. Top is an ideal way to spend that one mana you saved to play around Daze, and if we have a bad hand we don't want to cast any cards from, we can always use Top to find stuff we can use. It's mostly there to make sure we don't end up losing a long game because we draw three bad cards in a row.

Sylvan Library has that same purpose, mostly. Of course Sylvan can also be used to draw three cards against controllish decks or certain combo, but Top has the advantage of being able to be used as soon as we play it. Cast, check top three cards, rearrange, draw the card you want. Two mana spent to draw a useful card immidiately. Sylvan cannot do that for you. You'll have to wait until the next turn for it to be of use. Mirri's Guile has that same disadvantage.

[sdematt]

Couple things:
1. Your mana curve is 9 CMC1 - 2 of which often are not usable on turn 1, 18 CMC2, 6 CMC3 and 5 CMC4+. (Counting Stalker in that last one, since we're never casting him before turn 4. We don't run cantrips.) I would never play that. I need at least 11 reliable one drops, preferably 13+. Going down from the usual 8 to 7 seems very bad.
2. Your land base seems off. Why the Taiga? I'd run as much fetch as possible to fuel Deathrites mana ability, plus if you run Tombstalker without cantrips, you really need to find a way to fuel his delve.
3. If you want to up your curve, Zenith+Arbor seems a very natural addition, allowing you to ramp into that higher curve.
4. I would first try Garruk Relentless over Koth. Better all round abilities, and we run very little Mountains.
5. This list has 61 cards main deck.

Of course, this is just a testing list. It's meant to show a direction more than a concrete list.

[Seraphix]

Of course, this is just a testing list. It's meant to show a direction more than a concrete list.

I like how it looks. Could Young Pyromancer be worked into this somehow? Seems interesting to play next to Painful Truths. Also I love the idea of playing a bunch of cheap discard and burn spells to power out Tombstalkers.

[sdematt]

I mean, people are going to say STP nicks Stalker easily, and I'll agree. But realistically, that's the ONLY removal spell, and unless we're playing Thrun, every other threat is going to suffer the same problem. Before Delver, Eva Green was a real deck purely on the back of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Maybe Peezy could work in, but I think you could slant the deck and do that niche better in blue, since Brainstorm.

[Asthereal]

I mean, people are going to say STP nicks Stalker easily, and I'll agree. But realistically, that's the ONLY removal spell, and unless we're playing Thrun, every other threat is going to suffer the same problem. Before Delver, Eva Green was a real deck purely on the back of Tarmogoyf and Tombstalker.

Eva Green did support Stalker better because of Dark Rituals, but you have a point. Stalker does want me to add more fetch and cheap Bolts though, which makes it hard to keep playing 4x Grove 4x PunFire. I'll try to cough up a sample list regardless, dropping one of both:

Guys:
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker /12

Spells:
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Punishing Fire
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths
3 Liliana of the Veil /26

Lands:
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Wasteland /22

Sideboard:
1 Scrubland
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Duress
3 Pyroblast
2 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Nihil Spellbomb /15

This has a mana base with 14x initial green, 14x initial black, 14x initial red, with 8x Fetch and 4x Wasteland -> aggressive mana base. Same fetch/waste count as old Eva Green lists to fuel Stalker. One land less than original Jund because of the Zenith->Arbor option.
Zenith ups the Goyf/Stalker-count to 10 total, which is more aggressive than regular Jund. We also have 7x CMC1 discard and the full set of Lightning Bolts to fuel the grave early on, hoping to get Stalker out on turn 3 or 4. PunFire is now more of a late game option instead of Plan A (which it was for my old list).

How does that look?

[Hmmm_Really?]

@Asthereal, no Sylvan Library?

[Asthereal]

@Asthereal, no Sylvan Library?

Painful Truths took its place. But it's not set in stone, this is just a draft.

[Madsk]

I have alot of issues with double black when faceing wasteland/stifle decks.
I find it strange that i find few to none lists without grove and punishing fire, gives more bolts and black sources.
That said i find jund to be very weak vs punishing fire. I been looking to adress treats thats not weak to gy hate and atm i test out Pack Rat (became better with pfire and Loam)

Anyone with simulere idees,
My list atm:
4 drs
4 dc
4 goyf
2 bbe
4 abrupt decay
4 lightning bolt
1 maelstrom pulse
1 command
2 sylvan Library
3 hymn
4 ts
4 liliana
4 verdant catacombs
3 bloodstained
2 wooded foothills
3 badlands
1 taiga
3 bayou
4 wasteland
1 forest
2 swamp

Sb something like
3 choke
2 reb
2 surgical
1 Loam
1 grafdiggers cage
1 pithing needle
1 engineered plauge
2 duress
2 xxx typically something like toxic deluge, null rod, chains of mephistoles, golgari charm, pack rat/Thrun or boil

[Anarky87]

You could always run 1 Urborg instead of the Taiga. That's what I've been doing and I've been fine.

[Seraphix]

I have alot of issues with double black when faceing wasteland/stifle decks.
I find it strange that i find few to none lists without grove and punishing fire, gives more bolts and black sources.
That said i find jund to be very weak vs punishing fire. I been looking to adress treats thats not weak to gy hate and atm i test out Pack Rat (became better with pfire and Loam)

...

The mana in the Punishing version certainly isn't great, but it works. I think the upside of Punishing Fire is high enough to justify it.

If I wasn't playing Punishing Fire I think I'd want to jam a few Moons in the board.