When does the Inkmoth case come up? I can't think of anytime when I've activated and not been past the attack phase when my opponent responds.Originally Posted by Svyelunite
I like Submerge over Dismember in the non-white splash version, because Reanimator usually has a Bayou on board, which means it bounces Elesh Norn, Griselbrand, and sometimes (but rarely) Iona, which Dismember can't.
This is extremely marginal corner case but of course technically correct. Not something to actively be worried about, I say.
Submerge is very powerful but like you said, white splash kind of makes it obsolete. In straight UG it has always been a staple for me. Nowadays even the Chad Hansen's Reanimator list plays forests so it's within the realm of possibilities to get a free shot against them in the post board games once in a lifetime. That said, Swords to Plowshares has some real applications in the reanimator and Sneak attack matchups. Maybe even against D&T if desired.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
It's come up a few times when casting pump spells in the blockers step. That said, Rod seems best in matchups where we're not blocking, I think some testing alongside Needle is warranted.
Has anyone considered just replacing Blighted Agent with True Name?
True name can't be interacted with meaningfully, locks up the ground if you lost the early game, and there are no instant speed sacrifice-causers in the meta that are remotely usable by good decks. Giving serious ways out from under Jace/Pfire/Darkblast/etc.. while being a legitimate clock on it's own seems ok. Just like Noble Hierach can, it may be decent enough to just combo with normal damage anyway; without the mind games or the worry of spending cards.
Just Noble Hierarch and Become Immense is enough to reduce the opponent, with no non-counter interaction available, to half health.
I do get that reducing the number of infect threats make the multiple paths to victory less reliable for a given path and makes Invigorate worse; but that's why I'm asking if someone has tested this or considered it.
EDIT: It's also noteworthy that it's not dissimilar that Vines + Berserk is essentially lethal in most cases (14 trample.)
What a stupid idea.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I'd prefer if you elaborated so I don't go testing an idea if it's completely without merit or so that people see an argument that makes sense and do or don't test it themselves, based on our armchair-general discussion.
I'll put my points out in bullet form:
* TNN comes down on the same minimum turn, and if it does, does not affect your ability to daze and is certainly a better board position outside of a Liliana deck (assuming you don't have another creature out yet.)
* TNN's clock by itself is a full 4 turns faster and is the same if you combo. They have the same clock if Hierarch is out.
* TNN can't be interacted with by the popular methods used against Infect
* TNN efficiently dispatches or neutralizes Anglers and Goyfs while you build to your combo-turn or fly over with Nexus.
* TNN takes roughly the same amount of combo cards (2-3) to kill a given opponent, outside of invigorate
They do interact with different life totals, hence why it makes sense why you wouldn't consider it; but there is literally only a single card in this deck that gives the opponent life, which would still combo correctly with Berserk; and most of the time I see infect win, it is a single dude swinging for awhile as both player draw dead or a combo turn.
True name has no place is the deck because it doesn't provide you with infect AND is one turn slower to cast
Yes, it'll be an "unblock-able threat" as well but who cares when you have to pay invigorate for 3 mana, rather than free with a blighted agent? I don't see how this "combo" works when a lot of wins have come from back to back invigorates or pump + berserk. Also, 14 dmg != 10 poison, it makes a HUGE difference.
Either way, I'll address your points one by one.
I don't see how this is even true? True name costs 3, blighted agent costs 2... you can't just assume you're going to have a first turn hierarch every game.* TNN comes down on the same minimum turn, and if it does, does not affect your ability to daze and is certainly a better board position outside of a Liliana deck (assuming you don't have another creature out yet.)
TNN is a 7 turn clock from scratch, and a blighted agent is 10. The chances of drawing ZERO pump spells over the course of a game is almost impossible, outside horribly awful luck. This changes the clock exponentially....* TNN's clock by itself is a full 4 turns faster and is the same if you combo. They have the same clock if Hierarch is out.
Such as? The only cards I can really think of that seems lots of play are Abrupt Decay and StP. Neither of them are a reason to jam TNN into a deck it doesn't belong.* TNN can't be interacted with by the popular methods used against Infect
Why is this relevant though? You win much faster than those decks anyways (in general). Not to mention, decks running those cards have control elements as well and dragging the game out longer is very much a bad thing.* TNN efficiently dispatches or neutralizes Anglers and Goyfs while you build to your combo-turn or fly over with Nexus.
Exactly, OUTSIDE invigorate, our best card :)* TNN takes roughly the same amount of combo cards (2-3) to kill a given opponent, outside of invigorate
Wut?? Honest question (not trying to be rude at all) but, do you actually PLAY infect? That's not my experience at all....They do interact with different life totals, hence why it makes sense why you wouldn't consider it; but there is literally only a single card in this deck that gives the opponent life, which would still combo correctly with Berserk; and most of the time I see infect win, it is a single dude swinging for awhile as both player draw dead or a combo turn.
TL;DR version - if you want to play TNN, build a deck around him (equipment decks work fairly well with him), he does not have a place in Infect's archetype.
I think most of what you typed is nonsense or dishonest argumentation.
Let's look at the facts first, and then areas of contention that matter; rather than quote-snipe gibberish at each-other in a dick-measuring contest. I'm merely exploring an idea here I had at work that seems valid.
Facts:
* 40% of the games (or so) that you'd see TNN instead of Agent, you'll have Hierarch in your starting hand. If you cantrip into Agent/TNN, that rate likely goes up or it never mattered
* Invigorate still works if you use Berserk and still works on 2/3rds of your real threats without it. If I were correct on this, you'd probably drop Invigorate#4 for Berserk#3 or something. I've seen plenty of games where someone combos off using Noble Hierarch damage.
* TNN is a 6 turn clock or better at default. If you think otherwise, please go play legacy for the first time and then come back. (Thoughtseize, fetches, forces, probes, etc..) [D&T not withstanding.]
* You will *never* spend Vines, Daze, or Force protecting your TNN; other than from opposing countermagic (which you would've had to do anyway.) This is important for considering how often you'll combo off (given you'll have extra Vines and countermagic in your hand on average by comparison to the Agent version)
Contentions:
* You will be slower vs. combo 60% of the time (assuming you were able to combo off)
* You are weaker to Daze and Wasteland (this is quite fair)
* On a combo turn with only 2 pump spells, you're more likely to require an additional swing (or, you'll have to wait a turn to combo off because you want that additional swing first to conceal information)
* Pendlehaven doesn't work and is too good to cut or make less useful
* Double blue is too hard to cast
Let's argue on the contentions and not a bunch of bad arguments/insults provided from someone acting pompous. Let's also keep in mind that 60%-75% of the time, you'll be playing the deck exactly the same anyway and this change wouldn't impact you; assuming I'm completely wrong on my points.
Invigorate basically being 8 damage for 0 mana is what makes the deck Legacy viable, I think. When you want to start cutting Invigorates, you should probably start looking at another deck.
There might be other ways to branch off from the father of this deck(Berserk Stompy), and I could see TNN actually working in such a deck. It would be a different deck than this one though.
I think running TNN in an infect deck is mostly nonsense as well, but I tried to be polite about it and explain reasons why, despite thinking it's a bad idea.
Not sure why the hostility, Infect decks don't run TNN because they don't try to kill with regular damage. You want to play a deck with TNN that wins with regular damage, it's not going to be infect.Let's look at the facts first, and then areas of contention that matter; rather than quote-snipe gibberish at each-other in a dick-measuring contest. I'm merely exploring an idea here I had at work that seems valid.
Can you please explain where you got 40% from?Facts:
* 40% of the games (or so) that you'd see TNN instead of Agent, you'll have Hierarch in your starting hand. If you cantrip into Agent/TNN, that rate likely goes up or it never mattered
On a best case scenario, you have TNN (3 dmg) + NH (+1 dmg) + Invigorate (+4 dmg) + Berserk (dbl dmg) = 16 dmg for 4 mana. Which is maybe enough for a kill but not always. It's also much easier to disrupt.... where as:* Invigorate still works if you use Berserk and still works on 2/3rds of your real threats without it. If I were correct on this, you'd probably drop Invigorate#4 for Berserk#3 or something. I've seen plenty of games where someone combos off using Noble Hierarch damage.
With Blighted Agent, under the same scenario, you have BA (1 poison) + NH (+1 poison) + Invigorate (+4 poison) + Berserk (dbl dmg) = 12 poison for 1 mana. This also means you don't even need the hierach in play AND you are potentially keeping resources open for spell pierce/Vines/etc.
LOL my first pack of magic was Ice Age. ;)* TNN is a 6 turn clock or better at default. If you think otherwise, please go play legacy for the first time and then come back. (Thoughtseize, fetches, forces, probes, etc..) [D&T not withstanding.]
You are right about the protection part of TNN, which is really the only serious argument I could see for playing TNN.* You will *never* spend Vines, Daze, or Force protecting your TNN; other than from opposing countermagic (which you would've had to do anyway.) This is important for considering how often you'll combo off (given you'll have extra Vines and countermagic in your hand on average by comparison to the Agent version)
All these are added reasons not to play TNN in my opinion, except the last one. Double blue is not very hard to cast in Infect at all, only against wasteland heavy decks would you potentially have issues.Contentions:
* You will be slower vs. combo 60% of the time (assuming you were able to combo off)
* You are weaker to Daze and Wasteland (this is quite fair)
* On a combo turn with only 2 pump spells, you're more likely to require an additional swing (or, you'll have to wait a turn to combo off because you want that additional swing first to conceal information)
* Pendlehaven doesn't work and is too good to cut or make less useful
* Double blue is too hard to cast
Don't think I was insulting at all... sorry if you took it that way.Let's argue on the contentions and not a bunch of bad arguments/insults provided from someone acting pompous. Let's also keep in mind that 60%-75% of the time, you'll be playing the deck exactly the same anyway and this change wouldn't impact you; assuming I'm completely wrong on my points.
Absolutely agree... A "True name stompy" type deck with TNN and pump spells/berserks could potentially be a viable alterative to what the poster is looking for.
Not to beat this subject too much, but I've actually wondered how the deck might function with a semi transform sideboard. I was thinking more along the lines of bringing in SFM and batter skull/jitte. My thinking is that the decks we have the most trouble with (grixis delver and bug delver) have a horrible time dealing with those cards. Not sure it's a good idea, but might be worth exploring.
I've considered equipment as well but never with SFM, which certainly could be worth exploring as a SB option. As you said, Jitte especially is a beating against a good few decks in the format, especially delver variants we have trouble with.
I've been thinking about trying Divert in the sideboard for BUG(both the delver and Shardless varieties). It can be used to save a creature from Abrupt Decay, and can be used to generate card advantage(2 for 1 by redirecting removal to one of their creatures, 3 for 1 by redirecting Hymn to the opponent). Of course, it's useless when there's no valid target other than your creatures.
ive tried it (diverts) too in rug and infect (decks i usually pilot), sure itll be a great hit once resolved.. but u have to draw them early, and u need to run atleast 2 for draw consistency. midgame theyre trash unless timed very well, and if youre battling bug variants that runs drs, often times they can pay for it. if youre having trouble with decays i would just up my vines to 4. apostle's blessing can be of good help too together with spellskite. im running a 1 off REALITY RIPPLE, that won me lots of game vs decks that pack hates vs us. even the dreaded lilli and supreme verdict can be dodged by our beloved infectors.. can save a land too!
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Haha. My first long term deck 20ish years ago was UG, weenie creatures, pump spells, and counterspells. Reality Ripple was a fun utility card back in that deck. Definitely won some games off of it.
Mixed opinions on this one. Personal verdict is as most said, it's like a Spell Pierce with half the number of uses if drawn later or scouted out. Its a bit like Stifle in that it gets significantly worse if your opponent is playing around it. All of that said, the blowout potential is pretty incredible if you can catch someone out with it. Another high risk high reward card, I'd liken it to Teferi's Response if you have any experience with that one.
I have never been able to get Divert to work. The decks you want it against the most all have DRS and spare mana. It's pretty good when it works, it just doesn't work often enough for me. Vines vs. Decay, Sylvan Safekeeper and extra creatures vs. Miracles and other decks with lots of removal just seems to work better. Against Hymn and Thoughtseize take out reactive cards and get more permanents in.
So I played the UGw version of this deck that Zach/Svyelunite played at SCG ATL a while back because I wanted to get a feel for the deck. With the only changes being -1 ponder, +1 sylvan library and a few fetch land changes. Deck was a blast to play, I just haven't been able to get a feel for sideboarding.. Do you guys have any tips for what I should be taking out? Some number of dazes on the draw seems correct. Other than that is it just the 1 off flex slots the ones I should be boarding out? Do git probes come out too?
4 Blighted Agent
4 Glistener Elf
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Sylvan Library
1 Become Immense
1 Crop Rotation
1 Flusterstorm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Stifle
2 Berserk
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Vines of Vastwood
4 Brainstorm
4 Invigorate
1 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah
1 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Inkmoth Nexus
4 Tropical Island
sideboard:
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Absolute Law
2 Rest in Peace
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Krosan Grip
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response
1 Vines of Vastwood
While we're talking transformational sideboards, if you're playing the white splash and already have rest in peace why not add helm of obedience too. They'll never see it coming!!!
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