What about chains of mephistopheles? Has anybody tried it? Seems good vs every blue deck in the format
I feel like you have too few threats. Maybe I'm just used to seeing more Rhinos :P I don't like Liliana in Junk since it's hard to break the symmetry (all our card draw helps), so I'd just run more evasive creatures to help connect that Equipment (ex. Rhino). You're running Nightmare AND Intent to find it, so why not complete the loop with 2 more Rhinos?Originally Posted by Hmmm_Really?
This card is way worse than people think it is. If it were a flash creature, then it would be fine. Blue players can play around it too much, and it doesn't hit for damage. I think if you own one, I guess you play it (I don't...), otherwise, don't spend your money.
On modo is 3 bucks! Ill give it a try and report here my impressions
1) Sylvan library is a very powerful card. You want to see one in almost any matchup. The second is pretty weak if you ask me. The list is as tight as possible and I think the 2nd Painful truth is better than the 2nd Sylvan.
2) No karakas because as a 1 one-of, I have no way to tutor it and the mana base is already as stretch as possible. Qasali is mandatory, having a tutorable answer against any enchant/artifact deck is a must. No to mention that with Meren, you have a nasty loop.
3) My list is a grindy machine. Even if Liliana is not as good as in a Punishing Fire list as you don't get to take full advantage of its symmetrical effect, it deserves its 3 slots. Liliana is wonderful against combo and control (and even tempo):
- It pressures combo hands
- It forces control decks to deal with it or die to its ulti (most likely)
- It is a potential out against big fatties.
- It is a spot removal when it has to and you get to choose if you want to use its symmetrical effect. If you don't want to, you are not force to. And when you are hellbent, it grows again (so it could be a X for 1 where X>=2).
4) Volrath is cute. It takes a land slot and since the printing of Meren, I don't think it has any use in Legacy. Meren +Volrath is too much commitment to grave strategy and you could be doomed G2 & G3 because of that commitment.
5) Recurring Nightmare is an interesting card but it requires a lot of creatures' density to make it worth. Below 20 creatures MD, I would not advise to play it, because the odds of having it in your hands with no creature in play is real (not to mention the bolt/decay your last creature when you play it...).
6) Same as 5) for Diabolic intent.
7) Concerning your list:
- You don't play enough threats (as Sdmatt pointed out already) to sustain diabolic/Recurring. But please do some real tests.
- Why 4 veteran when you play only 5 basics ? I cut Veteran to 1 because veteran (unlike DRS) is not good against every MU (poor against combo, control and D&T for example). If you want to play 4 veteran, play more basics and more bombs.
- Qasali/Rec.Sage deserves a slot (if you ask me) even if SFM decks are on a low trend. Looping Qasali is real with Meren. Qasali is also better than Sage against Infect. Sage wears equipment like a champ. Go for the one you like the most.
Anyway, give your list a spin and let's talk about some of your/mine choices afterwards.
My 2 cents.
@Ralf, @sdematt, thanks for the input. Food for thought. I'll tinker around and let you know results shortly.
I really wanna jump on the Meren wagon, but I think it is just not worth it: too many shamans around, between elves bug delver and shardless bug. A single 1 mana dork can render useless meren and the gsz we used for her..plus it has no protection against stp. neither does rhino but at least he gives us a free helix. It seems like meren can be nasty for the opponent if unanswered but to me it appears as too slow. Maybe im just too narrow minded and focus too much on the kind of protection that thrun and sigarda offer to the deck.
Someone has any particular experience with Meren that is worth sharing?
E: sorry for the awful english, not my language
I was a spectator in this case, but I saw her take over a game Thursday. Shardless couldn't get rid of her and she pulled back 7-8 creatures in a very grindy game, and Shardless couldn't keep up with it. Recurring Vets gave the Meren player a huge mana advantage and Witness+Swords stabilized and cleared the way for a win.
That said, I played him a couple rounds later and DRS eventually did turn her off, but not before she brought back Pridemage enough to keep me from comboing off (Aluren, we were both topdecking) and Thragtusk. She's not unbeatable, but there are relatively few answers for her in the format and she's an incredible engine if she sticks. It also helps a lot that she triggers on end step.
@hmmm...really?- you may like the feel of my current list and it may be closer to what your looking for. I included some loose boarding plans my shardless approach may need more work.
creatures 15
3 vet
2 drs
1 teeg
1 ooze
1 sfm
1 qpm
1 courser
1 mentor
3 rhino
1 sigarda
selection 10
3 top
3 zenith
1 intent
1 nightmare
2 painful truths
disruption 14
4 therapy
3 decay
1 path
1 plow
1 deed
1 deluge
1 pulse
1 sofi
1 jitte
lands 22
2 bayou
2 savanna
1 scrubland
1 badlands
2 forest
2 plains
2 swamp
1 dryad arbor
1 phrexian tower
4 verdant catacombs
3 windswept heath
1 marsh flats
14 b 14g 13w
Sb 15
2 teeg
1 cannonist
1 dryad militant
1 k grip
1 deed
2 thoughtseize
2 slaughter games
1 solas
1 hymn
2 pithing needle
1 rip
Miracles:
-2 vet - 1 path -1 plow -4 therapy -1 nightmare -1 jite -1 deluge
+2 thoughtseize +2 games +1 k grip +2 needle +2 teeg +1 solas +1 deed
Storm:
-1 path -1 plow -1 sigarda -1 rhino -1 nightmate -1 decay -2 truths -1 courser -1 vet
+2 thoughtseize +2 games +2 teeg +1 cannonist +1 hymm +1 rip +1 militant
Shardless:
-1 intent -1 nightmare -2 cabal therapy -1 jitte
+1 solas +2 needle +1 rip +1 deed
Your English is fine, we understand you no problem, but se parla italiano facile, per favor parla! :)
It's true, there are more Shamans, but remember we have tons of removal. It's why I'm playing Deluges as well, since for 2 life, you can sweep a bunch of stuff away and start your loops :)
I don't think Meren is an absolute necessity, but she's quite good. I think there's no problem not playing Meren, but playing Recurring instead as your engine. But, it just means in either case, you need a few more creatures and a few less spells. Finding the cuts are hard.
The reason why Shardless matchup can suck is due to the Walkers, Visions, and quick Tarmogoyfs along with a slow draw from us. Sigarda knocks out that deck, along with Jund as such :)
@Ralf, you don't like vet exp against D&T? Why not?
I always keep it in, worst case it eats a swords to plow shares (though you can avoid if when you like), best case it gets you out of their mana denial plan quite handedly and gives you the mana to cast your wraths and big threats.
And cabal therapy is real good against SFM
Shardless can be a pain, but I think it's a better mu for us compared to miracles. Today I kept up with my shardless opponent after he casted 3 visions! I died because he stabilised with 2 shamans and I didnt pulse them for 2 turns because after all the visions i was expecting a planeswalker..my bad, but i didn't feel at a big disadvantage.
I already know that it's been tried, but I'll start playing Elspeth KE. She has a reasonable cmc, is a problem for control decks, make rhinos fly (that's gotta be hilarious..and powerful) and chumps goys for days.
It seems people have not liked her that much, but I'll give her a try. At the moment I'm running Garruk Primal Hunter and Elspeth KE because, being on MODO, I have to face miracles and shardless all day long.
One last thing: in the sb games this deck is not that bad vs storm. It's a 50-50 to me, because between the 9 discard spells, the s games, 2 canonists, gsz-able teeg and dryad militants (she's lovely against storm...and dredge, in my opinion), we can disrupt them nicely. Of course we still die to extremely fast combo hands, but that's normal.
Of course, Storm won't be great. Neither SnT.
I was playing Elspeth KE for a long time and really liked it, but at the GP I expected to see a ton more Pyromancer, so I added in the second Toxic Deluge. I loved Elspeth since she's a walker that beats Jace, and poops tokens. And at 4 mana, it's not bad. The bad part is the double white. I also tried Sorin, and he wasn't bad either. Garruk is likely also okay, whether it's primal hunter or Relentless. I'll be honest - I REALLY want to try Ulvenwald tracker again, cute as it may be :3
I was speaking of my list (no sweeper MD).
But as a more general overview if you are "banking" your ass on Deed against D&T, you will be doomed more often than not.
You really need to play Toxic (any other sweeper) + Deed to keep your veteran "in", if not a competent D&T player will play revoker on deed and protect him at all cost.
Thinking that D&T, is a "walk in the park", is definitely a mistake.
I have played against D&T hundred of times. The MU is tight, very tight. Sometimes, it is a blow out on each side but generally, the games get really dirty. Learn to scoop fast when you can (and you know that your sideboard turns the MU better), because, if not, a draw is likely to happen.
And that's the matchup where you want Deluge maindeck so your Game 2 isn't so upkill. With 2 Deed, 4 Decay, 2 Deluge and then 2 Charm from the side, ideally you then take Game 2 as well.
-Matt
If your meta allows you to play it, it may be decent (kills enemy creatures, abuses Dora's father). Unfortunately it's not viable on MODO in my opinion
When facing DRS, just GSZ for Rhino instead of Meren. Works like a charm.
Anywho... I had a wonderful weekend. Went 3-1-1 at my legacy monthly (22 players, 5 rounds), crushed my opponent in the quarter finals (so 4-1-1) and b/c my wife was making pizza and top 8 had already opted for a split, I dropped and was back home in time to enjoy that as well. For the report:
Round 1, 2-0 vs. Burn:
Game 1
My opponent wins the die roll and leads off with a Barbarian Ring. Since there's only 1 deck in legacy that plays it, I immediately know what I'm facing. My turn 1 is land Swamp, Cabal Therapy. I think a second and name Eidolon of the Great Revel. He was holding 3! Turn 2 I dropped a land, DRS & Vet Ex and turn 3 ate Vet Ex with a freshly drawn Phyrexian Tower to GSZ for Dragonlord Dromoka. Stone. Cold. Nuts. My opponent scooped. Nice way to start a tournament!
Game 2
He gets off to a better start and starts beating me with Goblin Guides. Somewhere I manage to drop a Courser of Kruphix that starts eating his Guides and helps me stabilize. He drops an Eidolon, I answer with Pridemage (which I don't blow up until after he's taken a couple of points of damage himself). A few turns later, Siege Rhino joins in and seals the deal.
Round 2, 2-0 vs. BUG Pod Fit:
Game 1
During round 1 we already saw what the other was up to and had a little laugh about having to play the mirror. Game 1 takes forever. It didn't that help my opponent played slowly as hell. He starts off with a DRS which I answer with a Scavenging Ooze, keeping green mana open every single turn. Later that DRS turns into Recurring Nightmare and is joined by Meren. I never knew one Ooze could do so much work. Whatever he targeted, my Ooze ate it. Hungry bastard. At some point, he Shriekmaw'd my Ooze after which I Eternal Witness'd it, just to keep him off tilt. After some time, I stabilize, land a Rhino and a Karador (fuck you, Pernicious Deed!) and end with a Sigarda FTW. Somewhere, he also had 2 Pernicious Deeds. Meh, Rhino didn't care.
Game 2
Was a lot quicker. He had a wobbly started and I dropped a turn 3 (I believe) Rhino. He killed the Rhino, I Witnessed it and shortly after the Rhino got paired up with another Rhino. Yeah.
Round 3, 0-2 vs. Miracles:
Game 1
Took forever. With another slow playing opponent Again. At some point he got me. I didn't care, I was bored.
Game 2
Ended a lot quicker. Again. I really didn't care. It was so boring.
Round 4, 2-1 vs. MUD:
Game 1
He had the absolute nuts. He killed me T3 via a hasty Blightsteel Colossus. Yeah.
Game 2
Went long. Again. He started beating me down, I managed to stabilize thanks to Meren, Eternal Witness, Path to Exile, Qasali Pridemage and 4 Cabal Therapy to keep him from combo'ing with his Metalworker and Staff of Domination. It did help that Therapy discarded a Metalworker and 2 Wurmcoil Engines, amongst other things. At some point I have a board of Karador, Ghost Chieftain, Meren, Rhino and some other stuff when he decides to stick his Batterskull onto the Wurmcoil Engine he did manage to play and attack with it. So I had Meren, Rhino and all other stuff except Karador chump it. He killed them all (deathtouch), giving me a shitton of experience counters. So during my turn I recast Meren from my graveyard, end of turn got Pridemage back and rebuilt my board from there. A couple of turns later, he Spine of Ish Sah'd Karador, which came back at EOT thanks to Meren and the aformentioned shitton of experience counters. So that was funny. Finally, I drew a Sigarda and closed the game.
Game 3
After he started off with a T2 Steel Hellkite (whom I put on the right Path), he only drew lands, poor guy. Rhinoes got the job done. He was pretty salty about not drawing into Ugin twice. Oh well.
Round 5 vs. Grixis Delver, ID. Was vs. a buddy of mine. We spent yesterday playing the match a dozen times or so. Seems even postboard it's quite favorable for me. So that's nice.
Quarter finals vs. BUG Delver, 2-1:
Yes! Delver.dec! These games were pretty textbook. Cabal Therapy a bunch, Path to Exile a bunch, ride Rhino to victory. G2 he got me.
Game 3 was silly.
I opened with Forest, Explorer. My following turns were Explorer, go. Explorer, go. DRS, go. He really did not want to kill my board. Until they beat him down to 8. Lol. He Golgari Charms, I get a shitton of land after which, Rhino hit the field. He finds an answer in Tarmogoyf which I attack right into, getting him down to 3. GSZ for Rhino seals the deal.
The day was a lot of fun, the deck performed incredibly well, well beyond expectations. There wasn't a single card I was unhappy to have in my deck. I was running the list I posted @page 130 or so (notable stuff: No libraries/tops, instead a Fierce Empath, Karador, Ghost Chieftain and a second Diabolic Intent). Meren was an absolute beast, and so was Karador. Painful Truths came in handy a couple of times, drawing me enough gas to get back in the game. Courser of Kruphix is also amazing, even without Tops and such. I run 17 cards that allow me to shuffle my deck, the library manipulation Courser offered was enough to pull me through a lot of shit. This deck doesn't necessarily need to play more cards, making sure you draw the right one seems to be enough.
I was also very happy with my SB. I pretty much used everything except Gaddock Teeg, Dryad Militant and the 3 Duress but that's logical due to my MU's.
Fun fact: There were a number of times I could GSZ for 4 or so and I was wondering what to get. I'd think "Well, you know, this is pretty good, and so is that. Wait, why don't I just get a Rhino and smash face?". Despite all the good stuff this deck runs, just GSZ'ing for a Rhino is more often than not enough to close the game. Even when you're playing a certain list, you're incredibly susceptible to the danger of cool things when piloting this deck.
Last edited by Echelon; 12-07-2015 at 04:38 AM.
Post your list, you barbarian.
Lol. It was on page 126, my bad. Here you go, good sir:
Main (60):
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Eternal Witness
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Fierce Empath
4 Siege Rhino
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Dragonlord Dromoka
1 Karador, Ghost Chieftain
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Path to Exile
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
2 Diabolic Intent
2 Painful Truths
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
SB (15):
3 Duress
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Carpet of Flowers
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Golgari Charm
2 Pithing Needle
1 Rest in Peace
Somewhat light on removal, a lot of beef and GSZ'able CA engines.
Lol, you lazy person. Did you really have to quote his entire post ;-P
@ Echelon: Thnx for the report. Great result. I take it you where at Magic United montly? I am surpised that there is more NicFit action going on.
@ Empath, blood crawls where it cant go huh.
@ GSZ f 4, Obviously going for beatdown in favor of "tech" is often better and might be on a (slighly) favored boardstate. Having access to other functionality is still your lifeboat.
@ Courser, glad to hear he did solid work for you. It is one of the most undervalued cards NicFit (and other archetypes) have access to.
Other question; did you play Elves at the Spellenspektakelbeurs a month ago?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
