[Deck] U/G Infect

[Svyelunite]

While we're talking transformational sideboards, if you're playing the white splash and already have rest in peace why not add helm of obedience too. They'll never see it coming!!!

Lol, you're right, they would not...

[James718]

IF there is a chalice heavy meta is Infect a terrible choice?

How do you play around a chalice on 1?

[Jesture]

IF there is a chalice heavy meta is Infect a terrible choice?

How do you play around a chalice on 1?

Infect can play through Chalice on one reasonably well, though I've found 4cLoam to be a relatively difficult matchup. As far as the other chalice decks (Tezz, MUD, Merfolk) I've had pretty high win percentages. You're typically fast enough to steal games preboard, and you have Blighted Agent and Inkmoth to play a longer game.

[poxy14]

3-0ed a mini yesterday... and coincidentally, i slaughtered 2 chalice decks in a convincing fashion... beat mud 2-0, 2-1 vs dnt, and blighted was islandwalk all the way vs merfolks 2-0... got me store credits.. chalice 1 shld still be countered as it slows down our cantripping...but never was a major issue vs blighted and invigorates... i have main 2 become immense so it negates the issue i wouldnt be able to major pump via berserk. inkmoth alone is a beating vs mud. seal of primordium is awesome too yesterday.. thats why i dont use claim anymore.

[Neffy]

i have main 2 become immense so it negates the issue i wouldnt be able to major pump via berserk. inkmoth alone is a beating vs mud. seal of primordium is awesome too yesterday.. thats why i dont use claim anymore.

Well YOUR local mud player isnt running tsabo's web i take it? ;) That card is a beating..
I just got my seals home signed (i love signed cards), so i might try it. Just dont like that it grows goyfs (vs. shardless) and costs 2. At the moment im running 1 krosan, 1 claim, 1 seeds of innocence (for the mud player) muaha. The latter is insane.

[poxy14]

Well YOUR local mud player isnt running tsabo's web i take it? ;) That card is a beating..
I just got my seals home signed (i love signed cards), so i might try it. Just dont like that it grows goyfs (vs. shardless) and costs 2. At the moment im running 1 krosan, 1 claim, 1 seeds of innocence (for the mud player) muaha. The latter is insane.

I dont think he carries it (tsabo's web), but itll be very bad vs us. Seeds is brutal! if they show up alot (mud) it shld replace one of my grips. Lots of miracles here in my meta so 2 grips are fine. vs goyf with shardless and strix, i will never put in seal, i'll just put in stps vs them : )

[haymaker18]

Infect can play through Chalice on one reasonably well, though I've found 4cLoam to be a relatively difficult matchup. As far as the other chalice decks (Tezz, MUD, Merfolk) I've had pretty high win percentages. You're typically fast enough to steal games preboard, and you have Blighted Agent and Inkmoth to play a longer game.

2 of my 3 losses at GP NJ last year were to Chalice decks (the mono-red Moggcatcher deck at 3-0 and then next round to MUD). The Moggcatcher list also landed Blood Moon and ran Sudden Shock (what a blowout). Neither match was particularly close...a quick Chalice, followed up by Moon and split-second burn is incredibly rough...while the MUD deck played a quick Chalice, Wasted my Nexus, and locked it up with Trinisphere. You'll be cursing the Nature's Claims in your board and wishing they were Krosan Grips whenever you face Chalice. This deck is pretty weak to Chalice on 1...if you're way ahead already and they don't draw anything else, you can play through it; however, I would play a different deck if you are in a heavy Chalice metagame. The Chalice decks typically run Wasteland, leaving Blighted as your only real out. I don't like those odds now that you can't resolve a brainstorm.

[out51d3r]

The Chalice decks typically run Wasteland, leaving Blighted as your only real out. I don't like those odds now that you can't resolve a brainstorm.

When people were talking about Necropede earlier, I wound up googling up Tom Ross's thoughts on the creature. One of the reasons he mentioned for keeping it in his sideboard was as an extra 2 mana threat vs Chalice decks. Seems like Viridian Corrupter could be decent there too.

[haymaker18]

When people were talking about Necropede earlier, I wound up googling up Tom Ross's thoughts on the creature. One of the reasons he mentioned for keeping it in his sideboard was as an extra 2 mana threat vs Chalice decks. Seems like Viridian Corrupter could be decent there too.

Corrupter is fine out of the board--but best if you play the 1x Green Sun's Zenith in the maindeck. Incidentally, the GSZ helps against Chalice too. I really like it as a 1-of...helps you find threats in attrition matchups.

[Jesture]

2 of my 3 losses at GP NJ last year were to Chalice decks (the mono-red Moggcatcher deck at 3-0 and then next round to MUD). The Moggcatcher list also landed Blood Moon and ran Sudden Shock (what a blowout). Neither match was particularly close...a quick Chalice, followed up by Moon and split-second burn is incredibly rough...while the MUD deck played a quick Chalice, Wasted my Nexus, and locked it up with Trinisphere. You'll be cursing the Nature's Claims in your board and wishing they were Krosan Grips whenever you face Chalice. This deck is pretty weak to Chalice on 1...if you're way ahead already and they don't draw anything else, you can play through it; however, I would play a different deck if you are in a heavy Chalice metagame. The Chalice decks typically run Wasteland, leaving Blighted as your only real out. I don't like those odds now that you can't resolve a brainstorm.

This is a list of bad things that can happen when playing against Chalice decks, no arguments there.

The loss to the Moggcatcher deck was reasonable as they have several angles of relevant attack, while the MUD matchup can be really rough if they goldfish the nuts but overall falls in our favor based on consistency. You're absolutely right in that this deck has some difficulty beating a resolved Chalice on one, as we have cantrips, Glistener Elf, Noble Hierarch, Berserk, and Vines of Vastwood all costed at 1 mana. On the flip side though, there's no guarantee the opponent will be able to resolve a Chalice through counter magic, nor that they'll win the game if they do manage to play Chalice. Wasteland is a real problem for Inkmoth but isn't ubiquitous in Chalice decks, nor do Chalice decks cantrip aggressively like Delver decks to find Wasteland for our Inkmoths (again with the consistency). Overall, I'd say a lot of it falls down to averages. Chalice on one preys on blue decks with weak starting hands, and it'll do the same to us from time to time. We've all been there before.

I'd say our matchups against 4cLoam and Moggcatcher are negative for reasons including but also outside of Chalice, while our matchups against most other Chalice decks are generally positive. A combination of consistency and speed that Chalice Decks lack aided by our permission spells tends to be enough to overcome early lock pieces. I've been playing Nature's claims as an answer to the Stoneforges at my shop, but if you're having trouble against Chalice on one specifically, it should almost certainly be swapped out for a Seal of Primordium.

Edited for clarity

[haymaker18]

This is a list of bad things that can happen when playing against Chalice decks, no arguments there.

The loss to the Moggcatcher deck was reasonable as they have several angles of relevant attack, while the MUD matchup can be really rough if they goldfish the nuts but overall falls in our favor based on consistency. You're absolutely right in that this deck has some difficulty beating a resolved Chalice on one, as we have cantrips, Glistener Elf, Noble Hierarch, Berserk, and Vines of Vastwood all costed at 1 mana. On the flip side though, there's no guarantee the opponent will be able to resolve a Chalice through counter magic, nor that they'll win the game if they do manage to play Chalice. Wasteland is a real problem for Inkmoth but isn't ubiquitous in Chalice decks, nor do Chalice decks cantrip aggressively like Delver decks to find Wasteland for our Inkmoths (again with the consistency). Overall, I'd say a lot of it falls down to averages. Chalice on one preys on blue decks with weak starting hands, and it'll do the same to us from time to time. We've all been there before.

I'd say our matchups against 4cLoam and Moggcatcher are negative for reasons including but also outside of Chalice, while our matchups against most other Chalice decks are generally positive. A combination of consistency and speed that Chalice Decks lack aided by our permission spells tends to be enough to overcome early lock pieces. I've been playing Nature's claims as an answer to the Stoneforges at my shop, but if you're having trouble against Chalice on one specifically, it should almost certainly be swapped out for a Seal of Primordium.

Edited for clarity

Are you running copies of Seal over Krosan Grip? Perhaps that's correct...just had never seriously considered it as my brain goes from Claim directly to Grip if I want to be better vs Chalice and CB/top. Seal is certainly faster than Grip, so that's something. For me, what used to be an easy(ish) matchup against Miracles seems to be much more difficult these days and I cherish the opportunity to break up a CB/top lock. Grip also has tons of value vs Taxes taking down Vials/equipment and preventing Flickerwisp from saving various targets. Seal is still relatively good against those decks if drawn early, but it's no longer a sure thing. It's an interesting middle ground that probably hedges well against the rest of the field while still being decent against the particular decks you'd love to have Grip against.

[Jesture]

Are you running copies of Seal over Krosan Grip? Perhaps that's correct...just had never seriously considered it as my brain goes from Claim directly to Grip if I want to be better vs Chalice and CB/top. Seal is certainly faster than Grip, so that's something. For me, what used to be an easy(ish) matchup against Miracles seems to be much more difficult these days and I cherish the opportunity to break up a CB/top lock. Grip also has tons of value vs Taxes taking down Vials/equipment and preventing Flickerwisp from saving various targets. Seal is still relatively good against those decks if drawn early, but it's no longer a sure thing. It's an interesting middle ground that probably hedges well against the rest of the field while still being decent against the particular decks you'd love to have Grip against.

Seal comes in for Claim. The trade-off is for Chalice and Countertop, while being worse against pretty much everything else (even Void Winnower). There was a point in time where I didn't leave home without 2 Grips in the sideboard, but casting Grip against mana denial strategies proved to be problematic on several occasions. I think I'm currently either running a 1/1/1 split of the three or a 1/1 split of Grip/Claim.

[Figurative]

Hey guys,
For a while I was going to build merfolk as my intro to legacy deck. However I've been doing research and not only does this look more competitive it's not much more expensive either. Would this be a good choice as a first real legacy deck (not burn), and what would I need to remove to get it about $1,500? Anything else I should know about it? Thanks.

[out51d3r]

Hey guys,
For a while I was going to build merfolk as my intro to legacy deck. However I've been doing research and not only does this look more competitive it's not much more expensive either. Would this be a good choice as a first real legacy deck (not burn), and what would I need to remove to get it about $1,500? Anything else I should know about it? Thanks.

TBH, if you aren't picky about card condition, getting MP/HP Trops instead of NM/SP will save a couple hundred bucks on it's own. I did that, and was pretty satisfied with what I got. Going this way on FoW and Berserk would save a decent amount of money too.

Note: SCG currently(for the next ~12 hours) has a Legacy/Vintage staple 15% off sale going on. It includes Tropical Island and Force of Will.

I'd also recommend going with the white splash, instead of the utility land sideboard. Cutting Karakas and a Wasteland will shave a couple hundred more off the deck(some people also substitute a Savanna for one of the Tropical Islands when they do this, which would be another $100 or so off). These are choices that some people consider correct regardless of budget, so they are definitely good ways to cut costs.

Here's a list that I quickly slapped together that comes up to less than $1700. With some bargain hunting, you could probably get it down to $1500.

[poxy14]

I'd say our matchups against 4cLoam and Moggcatcher are negative for reasons including but also outside of Chalice, while our matchups against most other Chalice decks are generally positive. A combination of consistency and speed that Chalice Decks lack aided by our permission spells tends to be enough to overcome early lock pieces. I've been playing Nature's claims as an answer to the Stoneforges at my shop, but if you're having trouble against Chalice on one specifically, it should almost certainly be swapped out for a Seal of Primordium.

i totally agree that most chalice.dec are positive matchups for us. theyre too slow vs our turn 1 (when on the play) glisteners or inkmoths, just dont allow trinisphere as it wrecks our free spell fows and invi, once u land blighteds, then cotv 1 does nothing vs Bimmense and invis. Moggcatcher is a terrible matchup! i brought back in a forest coz my other teammate is playing this.. badmoon is counterable... magus via cavern is shit! i once lost a crucial game in the top8 when i fetched for trop (i have no forest back then) with a turn 2 kill on hand, landed a glistener, with fow backup, invi and berserk.... he got a nuts draw of cavern, ssg, ssg, magus : (

aggroloam i shld say is positive, u just have to have a good hand vs them, pfire is slow, u just have to time your pendelhavens well.
i once use naturalize, but seal of primordium is so good right now. random pox will rape our hands, but once we can cast seal, it's an insurance too vs eplagues and soul's night betrayal.. and a free spell too when resolved early vs trini, tanglewires, multiple golems, canonist, etc.

btw, i inserted back in a 1 negate for my 3rd pierce (in the sb) and its been doin well, especially vs mud, elves, miracles... but a bit slow vs reanimators.

[Figurative]

TBH, if you aren't picky about card condition, getting MP/HP Trops instead of NM/SP will save a couple hundred bucks on it's own. I did that, and was pretty satisfied with what I got. Going this way on FoW and Berserk would save a decent amount of money too.

Note: SCG currently(for the next ~12 hours) has a Legacy/Vintage staple 15% off sale going on. It includes Tropical Island and Force of Will.

I'd also recommend going with the white splash, instead of the utility land sideboard. Cutting Karakas and a Wasteland will shave a couple hundred more off the deck(some people also substitute a Savanna for one of the Tropical Islands when they do this, which would be another $100 or so off). These are choices that some people consider correct regardless of budget, so they are definitely good ways to cut costs.

Here's a list that I quickly slapped together that comes up to less than $1700. With some bargain hunting, you could probably get it down to $1500.

Cool thanks! Should be pretty easy to cut some money by fetching more beat up dual lands and forces, plus I already own some of the cards (Fetchlands) and I can probably trade for others somewhat easily (Inkmoths and Hierarchs).

Is this list optimized though? How similar is it to the standard build? What could I potentially add once I got more money? Thanks.

[out51d3r]

Cool thanks! Should be pretty easy to cut some money by fetching more beat up dual lands and forces, plus I already own some of the cards (Fetchlands) and I can probably trade for others somewhat easily (Inkmoths and Hierarchs).

Is this list optimized though? How similar is it to the standard build? What could I potentially add once I got more money? Thanks.

The sideboard was kinda scattered. Just includes a bunch of stuff that people use in the sideboard regularly. You'd want to play with numbers here, but most of the stuff commonly run in the white splash is in the list.
The main deck is actually fairly close to the white splash version people are running.

The main cuts were a Tropical Island from main(a few people only run 3 anyway), and a couple Flusterstorms from the sideboard. $1500 gets you VERY close to the complete Infect deck tbh. You should probably also run 2 of each green fetchland rather than 4 Heaths and 4 Foothills, just so it's tougher for you to get blown out by a well named Pithing Needle. I just picked the Heaths and Foothills because they are the cheapest, and the Pithing Needle situation doesn't come up that often.

Other than that, the only truly expensive cards would be for the utility land version: Karakas and another Wasteland. Most people don't run both those lands and the white splash at the same time though.

[Hopo]

Is this list optimized though? How similar is it to the standard build? What could I potentially add once I got more money? Thanks.

This deck isn't solved in the sense that there is no optimized list. The linked list looks typical except it's lacking a Tropical Island and playing Savannah main. Your first job is to get the final Tropical Island. People used to follow Tom Ross's builds but I don't know, sometimes he is trying too hard (Glittering Wish build, clunky Zenith builds) And even Ross understands that decklists are not set in stone. He used to play different lists in opens in in invitationals for a reason. There's no verdict on whether you should go Bant or stay UG. You make the decision based on your predicted metagame. If you need those Rest in peaces and Swords' you play them. I have played a fair share with and without white and both versions definitely have their merits.

My take on this deck is that I have found the zenith builds very clunky. In my opinion, Arbor just doesn't belong here and I have issues with zenith not being able to get a threat on turn 1.

[Figurative]

This deck isn't solved in the sense that there is no optimized list. The linked list looks typical except it's lacking a Tropical Island and playing Savannah main. Your first job is to get the final Tropical Island. People used to follow Tom Ross's builds but I don't know, sometimes he is trying too hard (Glittering Wish build, clunky Zenith builds) And even Ross understands that decklists are not set in stone. He used to play different lists in opens in in invitationals for a reason. There's no verdict on whether you should go Bant or stay UG. You make the decision based on your predicted metagame. If you need those Rest in peaces and Swords' you play them. I have played a fair share with and without white and both versions definitely have their merits.

My take on this deck is that I have found the zenith builds very clunky. In my opinion, Arbor just doesn't belong here and I have issues with zenith not being able to get a threat on turn 1.

Yeah that makes sense. Hopefully if I build this deck I can get the fourth sooner rather then later. Besides decks that STP and RIP obviously help against (the mirror, reanimator, jund, dredge, MUD) how does your matchup with UG vs Bant fare?

[chewemy]

Hi guys,

I've lost against merfolk (1-2) this weekend, game 1 we are favorable but after sideboarding it's really hard between 4 dismember, 4 submerge, spellskite and spreading sea.
How do you do to win this matchup ?

thanks